Marriage, Singleness, and Our Identity in Christ
Most of us in the church have heard the message, even if no one said it out loud: get married, have a family, and you’ll be complete. We’ve built so many of our rhythms and language around marriage as the destination that singleness has quietly become a waiting room.
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, we’re going to look at how the church’s narratives about marriage and singleness have limited us — and what it looks like to find real wholeness and identity in Christ, whether you have a ring on your finger or not.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- What the Bible actually says about marriage — and what it doesn’t
- Why singleness in the church gets treated like a problem to fix
- How our language about marriage unintentionally excludes and diminishes
- What it means to be complete in Christ regardless of relationship status
From this episode:
“Many of the church’s narratives have limited our understanding of marriage and obscured our view of the life-giving and kingdom-serving roles of single people. Jesus was single his entire life and is the most whole, complete picture of both human-ness and who God is.”
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching and Mentorship in Missional Living by Caesar and his wife Tina
Resources for missional living and group training – Missio Publishing
The Gospel In Everyday Life Workshop Register Now FREE
Transcript
We're lying to ourselves and doing our communities a disservice if we operate strictly according to that paradigm, that, that leaders of our community must be married, that, um, we only trust certain things to married people, and it's because, this gets back to the biblical theological thing, my read of the biblical text is if there is any indication of what a Christian should do, if, if we had a choice, right?
Kutter Callaway:Be married or commit to singleness.
Kutter Callaway:It's pretty clearly commit to singleness.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it sure seems like, I mean, if you wanna… But we, we kinda shovel that under the, push that under the rug a bit, but, but-
Kutter Callaway:Nobody talks about that,
Caesar Kalinowski:right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Paul, Paul was super explicit in that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then if we just look at our Lord as the, you know, if He's our model for life and- Yeah
Caesar Kalinowski:like freedom and liberty.
Caesar Kalinowski:So sorry, honey.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sorry.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Kutter Callaway:exactly, and He was a fully flourishing human being in every… I mean, this is a, this is a profound theological commitment to say Jesus, God incarnate, is, is the ultimate expression of both God and humanity, that- Right … that for us to say to be fully human means to be married immediately calls into question Jesus' full humanity
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good day, my friend.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good day indeed.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, it is a good day, and we've been having fun.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I don't know if our listeners know this, but we sometimes record multiple episodes together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:We, like, we, we don't record it Monday morning- Yeah … and put it right out, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:I never
Heath Hollensbe:wake this early, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, yeah, comes out at 3:00 in the morning on Monday, but, but it has been a good… Man, we've got some great stuff- Yeah … that we've did in the last couple weeks now.
Caesar Kalinowski:People have heard.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm, I'm just excited where it's going.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And today is gonna be no different.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, we've got an amazing guest.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, Cutter Calloway.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:For those who aren't familiar with him, he's, um, he's, uh, actually the assistant professor of theology and culture, uh, at Fuller Seminary.
Heath Hollensbe:His-
Caesar Kalinowski:Smart.
Heath Hollensbe:Super smart.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:His writing, uh, typically will focus on the interaction between theology and culture, and we're gonna have him back on to talk about, uh, how to watch movies and TV shows through- It- all of this-
Heath Hollensbe:a theological lens … it's
Caesar Kalinowski:great to have an expert, 'cause, like, this guy's, like, the brainiac study, you know, studied his whole life professor of it, so-
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely … I'm,
Caesar Kalinowski:that's why I'm so stoked, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, so, uh, actually, he- one of the things he's working on now is a, is a project that's concerned with the aesthetic dimensions of atheism, so.
Heath Hollensbe:It's- 'Cause why not?
Heath Hollensbe:Why,
Caesar Kalinowski:why?
Heath Hollensbe:So, uh- But, but- But today we're talking about his book, Breaking the Marriage Idol, about reconstructing our cultural and spiritual norms, uh, when it comes to marriage and singleness.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Caesar Kalinowski:And how the culture speaks into all that, and it's changing and shifting.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I had a c- I had an amazing conversation about just that with my, my own son several months back.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's an attorney, and he actually works for a firm that's connected to media and the arts- Hmm … entertainment and all that, but also some very interesting understanding of, uh, 'cause he's full-on believer- Yeah … um, understanding of marriage from a secular and social construct-
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah
Heath Hollensbe:… Caesar Kalinowski: versus, and over and against biblical marriage and all that, and how, you know, they're the two very, very different things.
Heath Hollensbe:And so anywho- Yeah, it'll be fun … very excited to have, to have our guest on today.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, hey, Cutter, thanks for joining us.
Kutter Callaway:Absolutely, thanks for having me.
Caesar Kalinowski:I gotta ask you, Cutter, w- any history to that name?
Caesar Kalinowski:Being a Caesar- … and one of, one of five Caesars now in the world.
Caesar Kalinowski:My grandson's number five, but h- what's with behind the name Cutter?
Caesar Kalinowski:And Cutter Calloway, you sound like a rock star or movie star- Yeah, it is
Heath Hollensbe:cool
Kutter Callaway:I really wish there was some, like, romantic story, and I, I used to think there was, but- … um, you know, I- my dad was actually a youth pastor in Texas, and for the longest time I thought that the, the students in his youth ministry had named me in the womb.
Kutter Callaway:You know, like a, like… And, and, uh, out I came, and it stuck, and I was, you know, the beloved son of this community.
Kutter Callaway:Well, turns out I'm, I'm one of five kids, and my parents are both K's too, so it's Kenny, Kathy, Camden, Cutter, Cassidy, Kayton, Colt.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Boom.
Kutter Callaway:Oh, I know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Kutter Callaway:I know.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, so I'm number two, and apparently my dad just came up…
Kutter Callaway:Now, I, I learned this only, like, 18 months ago- Huh … that apparently there was some racehorse in Houston- … that was by the name of Cutter, and, and my dad liked it, and badgered my mom, and she said, "No, we're never gonna curse our child with that name." And, and literally driving to the hospital in labor, my dad keeps, you know, needling her, "Can we…
Kutter Callaway:If it's a boy, can it be Cutter?" And she said, "Fine, if you'll just shut up and let me be in labor, we can name him Cutter," and that's how it happened, so.
Kutter Callaway:No
Heath Hollensbe:way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, it, it could've been Secretariat, so I mean, it w- we're grateful.
Caesar Kalinowski:True.
Caesar Kalinowski:A
Kutter Callaway:very good point.
Kutter Callaway:Very
Caesar Kalinowski:good point.
Caesar Kalinowski:Grateful for the…
Heath Hollensbe:No, it's great, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, um, one of the things that we're excited about is talking about your new book, uh, called
Caesar Kalinowski:Break- And really the topic in the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what we're most excited about.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, we don't mind hawking the book, but- … but we wanna, we wanna get to the stuff, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, so this book's called Breaking the Marriage Idol, and the subtitle is Reconstructing Our Cultural and Spiritual Norms.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, so we just wanna jump into this topic of marriage and singleness.
Heath Hollensbe:Um, in y- in your opinion, when it comes to the question of marriage and singleness specifically, what role does culture play in all of this?
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, well, you know, it's kinda funny.
Kutter Callaway:It's one of these books that is not, you know, if you look at sort of what I do and what I teach on and-
Kutter Callaway:my, my experience and background, it would not lead anyone to say, "Oh, this guy's gonna write a, a book on marriage." Sure.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and I even thought- But, but you
Caesar Kalinowski:are married, so.
Kutter Callaway:I, I am.
Kutter Callaway:I'm, you know, I'm an expert at this one marriage.
Kutter Callaway:Um, if you just ask my wife.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, uh, but it, it basically is in fact, um, sort of rooted in, in what I do in terms of, like, theology and culture.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and that it's really in a na- a theological engagement with, with culture, both the broader culture in which we all live and move and have our being, and then also this interesting, sometimes odd subculture of American Christianity.
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:And uniquely then focused on this question of, what does it mean to be married and single, both in the Church and then in society at large?
Kutter Callaway:And is the Church offering anything different or compelling, or even at the very basic level, Christian in the way we think about our community and, and it being comprised of, of s- both single and married people?
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:So, um, that's where it, it, it emerged out of just various conversations with, uh, friends, family members, colleagues, associates.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but at the end of the day, it really is this sort of, uh, cultural analysis of, uh, what are we doing right, and where might we do better?
Caesar Kalinowski:W- why do you think we've gotten to this point where there seems to be a, a very spoken about and very vocal, uh, sort of debate out there about the way the Church sees marriage and the way the culture, you know, sees and participates now in what is called marriage?
Caesar Kalinowski:And, you know, is it even biblically grounded on either side?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or should it be?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, uh, is, are they two different things?
Caesar Kalinowski:'Cause, you know, I, I go, I had to go get a marriage license from the state.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Kutter Callaway:yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But it had nothing to do with my covenantal, uh, you know, entering in with my wife.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was just a kinda like IRS thing, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:I had to get one, you know?
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, and I, I mean, I think it's a, a fantastic point of, uh, one, are these- Is, is there a time now that we need to name these as different things?
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and what would be the goods and bads of that?
Kutter Callaway:I mean, I'm not even… And in the book I don't do that, but even now I, I don't, I don't know if I know the answer to that.
Kutter Callaway:However, what is the case is that for the last however many hundred years, at least in the US, um, the broader cultural norms reflected Christian norms.
Kutter Callaway:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and so there wasn't, the question wasn't even there.
Kutter Callaway:So the, the getting your marriage license was a d- sort of de facto same thing as, as being married within the church, right?
Kutter Callaway:I mean, the, the, the sort of vision of what that meant was, was-
Caesar Kalinowski:Kinda part A, part B- Yeah … same process.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:And so, um, now as we're sort of increasingly a post-Christian, even a post-secular society, um, both, both as citizens of this broader society, but then as, as Christians, uh, who are inhabiting a pluralistic context, we need to start asking these questions of, what does distinguish a Christian marriage from something that's not that?
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and, and is the terminology what we wanna hold onto so that we, we start saying, "Not only is this thing marriage, but this needs to be marriage for everyone." Or are we comfortable saying, "This is what marriage means for us, this community, um, because of our, our faith commitments, our theological commitments."
Kutter Callaway:And if that's the case, and that's where the book really gets at, if that's the case, then how should that actually impact our day-to-day lives, um, the way that we, uh, lead, the way that we, we lead our own communities, whether as professional pastors or lay leaders, um, and then just the way that we interact with each other as a community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, I, I think all stems from that, that core question of what exactly is it, and is it, quote unquote, "biblical"?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, and, and see, I think the, the debate seems to be pitted on two sides of, you know… And here I have to quote another famous theologian, Inigo Montoya, who says-
Kutter Callaway:Yes,
Caesar Kalinowski:yes … "You keep using that word."
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:"I don't think it means what you think it means." Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, is it just a semantical wrangling, or is there completely now that the culture is not necessarily biblical based or a Christian culture, quote unquote, um, is it really two different things that we're looking at?
Caesar Kalinowski:And is that gonna be okay, or is it just, you know, suck it up, church?
Kutter Callaway:You know, I'm gonna go two directions with that answer, I think.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and again, this is what I think I think right now.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but on the one hand, I think they're actually the exact same thing, and part of what I do in the book is I say, at least for me, my sort of demographic, um, I'm about to be 40, so there's, there's how old I am.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so I, I grew up in, um, this sort of evangelical subculture that at least my read of it was it took all of the basic normative assumptions about marriage, um, and used those, but just added Jesus to it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and in so doing, thought it was offering me, a, you know, a young man, you know, at the age of 14 or 15, whatever, um, uh, thought it was offering me an alternative, right?
Kutter Callaway:An alternative to the misguided culture, quote-unquote, that had, had sort of skewed its perception of marriage.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so, so I was encouraged to embrace this vision of, of marriage, and then until marriage, singleness, um, that also implicated sort of my, my own sort of sexuality.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, and actually the first…
Kutter Callaway:My original title for the book was Sex, Saints, and Singleness.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, 'cause, 'cause sex sells, baby.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but-
Caesar Kalinowski:We try to get sex in as many titles- That's right … of the show- Exactly … podcast we can.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:So there you go.
Kutter Callaway:This is gonna be a great hit podcast.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so, so what I, what I kinda go through is I say, hey, let's look at, at, at the sort of broader cultural, uh, uh, expectations of marriage, um, and romantic relationships and coupling.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and it basically is saying to be fully human, you need to be in this basically romantic couplet- Hmm … um, that's engaged in sexual activity, and if you don't have either of those things, that is sort of a robust sexual life and/or a marriage, if you're denied those in any way, you're not fully human.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and I actually think for at least the, the evangelical subculture in the US, that's actually the same message that we either implicitly or explicitly communicate, um, except we just add on top of it- … if you fail in certain ways, you forever eliminate the possibility of flourishing.
Kutter Callaway:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:And you, you, um, are a less than human, right?
Kutter Callaway:You're, you're not allowed into certain, uh, areas of church leadership, for example.
Kutter Callaway:Right.
Kutter Callaway:You're not trusted with certain sort of, uh, uh, elements of, of counseling and whatnot.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so it… that's where that sort of add Jesus comes
Caesar Kalinowski:from.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, and that's, and that right away begins to tear down this whole idea that we talk about a lot on the show is id- our identity and, and where our true value and purpose in life actually comes from.
Kutter Callaway:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Kutter Callaway:And, and that's where I think, uh, like you're saying, like, the, the conversation about marriage, quote-unquote, in the larger public sphere, um, it's of course partisan and divided and polarized because every conversation is now.
Heath Hollensbe:Yep.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Kutter Callaway:surprise.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah … that, you know, part of, part of what I'm trying to do, at least in the book and now, is, is, is not say that I c- I'm somehow above the fray, 'cause I'm not, but to, to sidestep it and say maybe it's not marriage, uh, definitions that's the problem.
Kutter Callaway:Maybe it's our own, uh, amazing, uh, tendency over and over again as the people of God to create idols.
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Mm. Um, and, and what, what would it look like to say we wanna do this thing called marriage, and we can call it whatever we want, but we wanna do this thing, um, and we wanna do it right, but we want… we don't want it to function as this idol.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, a- and what would it look like?
Heath Hollensbe:That is actually something that you talk about in the book, that you say, uh, you reference that the Christian community actually idolizes marriage.
Heath Hollensbe:What do you mean when you're saying this?
Kutter Callaway:Well, basically, it's to say, um, well, you know, v- very generically, an idol is anything that, uh, it functions in the place of, or in a, in a place that's reserved only for God.
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Okay?
Kutter Callaway:Now, is marriage that sort of idol?
Kutter Callaway:In some ways, yes, because it gets back to that sense of fully thriving, flourishing individuals in society.
Kutter Callaway:Um, the way that we will talk about marriage, and again, I will say we meaning a pretty focused we.
Kutter Callaway:Sure.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, Protes- Protestant evangelicals in the United States, and not all of them, but, but there's this, there's this larger narrative that, that w- all of our local communities are part of.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and essentially it's to say, as, as individuals, um, we are created to be married.
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Kutter Callaway:So that, um, if you're not, you're not living out your fully creational sort of design or intent, um, which means that, uh- That it becomes the, the norm, it becomes the paradigm, marriage does, that, that, um, that we encourage and, uh, and sometimes coerce people into adopting.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Kutter Callaway:Um, all the rules that are set up within our communities are designed to, to, um, judge and evaluate people based upon this, um, this paradigm.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, and, and again, if you take it away, um, or you don't have it, then you become sort of a second-class citizen.
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Um, you become… There, there becomes something wrong with you, actually, at, at a certain point.
Kutter Callaway:It's not simply that you're not married, it's that you're broken.
Kutter Callaway:You're, you're not, uh, fully a, a member of the community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um- Like, "Why is s- why is she not married? Why is this guy not married?"
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and sometimes it's explicit like that, sometimes it's implicit, right?
Kutter Callaway:So that we see pretty much all senior pastors are married.
Kutter Callaway:Um, pretty much all the, the key leaders of our churches are married.
Kutter Callaway:Um, the-
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I was actually told that I needed to get married when I was m- young.
Heath Hollensbe:They're like, "You know, it's not, this is not a position for a, a, a single man to be in." Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, "You need to get married." No.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um- Well, some of that comes from, though, that this, this other false paradigm of the, you know, s- senior pastor jack of all trades has to do everything.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so therefore, you know, who's gonna do the marriage counseling?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's gotta be a guy who's married, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's-
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, a- and, and, you know, there's, there's… Again, part of what I'm getting at is not to say that people shouldn't be married or pastors sh- shouldn't be married.
Kutter Callaway:It's to say, man, if we look biblically, um, if we look historically at the Christian tradition, we are doing our…
Kutter Callaway:We're, we're lying to ourselves and doing our communities a disservice if we operate strictly according to that paradigm, that, that leaders of our community must be married, that, um, we only trust certain things to married people.
Kutter Callaway:And it's because, this gets back to the biblical theological thing, my read of the biblical text is if there is any indication of what a Christian should do, if, if we had a choice, right, be married or commit to singleness, it's pretty clearly commit to singleness.
Caesar Kalinowski:It s- it sure seems like.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, if you wanna… But we, we kinda shovel that under the push that under the rug a bit, but for- Nobody
Kutter Callaway:talks about that,
Caesar Kalinowski:right … Paul, Paul was super explicit in that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then if we just look at our Lord as the m- you know, if he's our model for life and- Yeah … like freedom and liberty and s- sorry, honey.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sorry, but Yeah,
Kutter Callaway:exactly, and he was a fully flourishing human being in every… I mean, this is a, this is a profound theological commitment to say Jesus, God incarnate, is, is the ultimate expression of both God and humanity, that-
Caesar Kalinowski:Right
Caesar Kalinowski:… Kutter Callaway: that for us to say to be fully human means to be married immediately calls into question Jesus' full humanity.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so, so this, these, these are- Wow … I mean, I don't wanna overstate it, but these are borderline heresies, right?
Kutter Callaway:Um, and-
Caesar Kalinowski:Another reason, another reason why we, most churches would never hire Jesus, right there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another-
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Um, I mean, he would not… He wouldn't make it on anybody's, uh, top list of candidates.
Kutter Callaway:Um-
Caesar Kalinowski:So what are you proposing instead?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, like, how do we- Yeah … how do we turn the corner on this, or what, what would it sound, taste, smell, look like in practice?
Kutter Callaway:Well, some of the stuff I do in the book, and, you know, you'll have to read the book um-
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, easy on the book promotion now.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, no, I…
Kutter Callaway:You know, part of… I really am… One of the things I'm doing, and, and I'll do a little plug for my podcast too here, um, that folks can listen, I- I'm gonna- I'm interviewing a number of different people, um, from, you know, whether they're, uh, men, women, uh, married, single, um, some older, some younger, and basically asking that question of like, okay, if, if we all kind of acknowledge, especially because we're at sort of a cultural tipping point with this whole marriage thing, um, increasingly, uh, people are delaying marriage, increasingly people are just not getting married.
Kutter Callaway:Um, we are, as a church, gonna have to address what a longer term single life looks like.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but also it's an opportunity for us to say, well, maybe it allows us to rethink, uh, some of the… And, and I basically say it's, um, uh, the way we tell stories, the way we sing songs, um, and the way we structure ourselves.
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Uh, and so how do we narrate from the pulpit, for example?
Kutter Callaway:Um, how-
Caesar Kalinowski:Every preaching illustration's about my kids.
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and/or, uh, you know, series that are explicitly about marriage and married life.
Kutter Callaway:Um, there, the, it, it's a, it's shocking to me the kind of sensitivity we'll, we'll show in some ways to not alienate certain groups in our community, but not when it comes to marriage.
Kutter Callaway:It's just like, well, the next six weeks, you know, 50% of you sitting here are not gonna care what I'm about to say.
Heath Hollensbe:Hm.
Kutter Callaway:But we go on ahead and say it anyway.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but, but beyond simply the content of what we, we preach and narrate, it would also be the people.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, so that gets back to hiring practices, the people we put in, in pulpits.
Kutter Callaway:Now again, uh, I, I would like these people to be called to a sort of pastoral preaching role, but still, um, a, single people, I think can do that.
Kutter Callaway:Again- Yeah … the Apostle Paul is a good example.
Kutter Callaway:Um, so that, that's one way of us tinkering with this.
Kutter Callaway:Um, another way is the, the singing songs part, um, I think-
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I wanna hear this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, well, well, I, I, one question I ask, uh, uh-
Caesar Kalinowski:Everybody hold hands.
Caesar Kalinowski:Everybody hold hands
Caesar Kalinowski:… Kutter Callaway: well, especially our single folks, uh, there's this really interesting short documentary that HBO produced called, uh, it's something like Big- uh, God is the Bigger Elvis.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, um, it's this, uh, this woman that, that w- starred, uh, next to Elvis for a few films, was an up and coming starlet in, in Hollywood.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, all signs point to she was gonna be the next, you know, sex symbol of Hollywood.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, she goes to this sort of personal retreat at a, um, a convent, and basically has a conversion experience and decides to become a nun.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the documentarians go and they're interviewing her and the other nuns there to say, basic- and they're just shocked.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're like, "How could someone that had your life not just give it up and become a religious person, but a celibate religious person?"
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, they were, they were like, "Seriously, tell us what's going on here." Um, and it was fascinating, these nuns, all single women who are, make vows to Jesus, right?
Kutter Callaway:They, they see their vocation as being married to Jesus, and they talk about corporate singing as an actual sensual, embodied, uh, orgasmic experience.
Kutter Callaway:And you have these nuns saying, "What man, human man, could satisfy me in the way that Jesus does when I sing together with my sisters?"
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Kutter Callaway:And I'm like, I'm like, I know, I'm like, that's, now that is a counter-cultural, uh,
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow
Caesar Kalinowski:… Kutter Callaway: way of viewing sexuality, marriage, singleness that, that I, I look at and I go, I have, I have so much admiration for that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um,
Caesar Kalinowski:and, and I- Does this… Now, you didn't name the actress.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not Mary Tyler Moore, 'cause she didn't- No, no, no … become a nun.
Caesar Kalinowski:But she was in that movie Change of Habit with Elvis where he was helping out these nuns.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember that?
Caesar Kalinowski:That was-
Kutter Callaway:I wonder if it was inspired by her.
Kutter Callaway:I, I… Um, God is the bigger Elvis.
Kutter Callaway:I think that's- Gonna have to
Caesar Kalinowski:Google that up later.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Keep going … it's
Kutter Callaway:Dolores, Dolores Hart.
Kutter Callaway:Dolores Hart.
Kutter Callaway:Um- So, um, you know, this is, this is the kinda thing where I think, um, a- a- you know, this is a, a side note but still central to the question of one thing that I discuss in the book of what's been d- become distorted in our conversations about singleness and marriage, especially with young people, is sexuality.
Kutter Callaway:So- What we've done in this sort of process of idolization is we've, we've punted or delayed our conversations about what does it look like to live as a, as a Christian single, or just a Christian person, with sexual integrity, um, either not being married or being married but being in a season where you're not having sex.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, what does sexual integrity look like, and how do you navigate that?
Kutter Callaway:How do you actually, uh, cope with that?
Kutter Callaway:You know, the- I'm not shocked that there are so many Christian marriages that fail because of sexual infidelity, in part because marriage doesn't solve sexual dysfunction, right?
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Um, and, and so I wanna say, how, how might we as a community- Uh, but we're all,
Caesar Kalinowski:we're all told that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But if you're gonna burn, then, you know, then put a ring on it, you know, like
Kutter Callaway:Exactly.
Kutter Callaway:Now, now again, there is some pastoral wisdom in that, right?
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:I mean, that, that, I don't wanna discount that.
Kutter Callaway:But to, to basically say that's the only answer we're giving, um, I think is also misguided.
Kutter Callaway:We, we need to say, "Okay, well, we now realize that we don't live in Paul's time, so we have young men and women that are not gonna get married for another 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 years.
Kutter Callaway:Um, what, what does sexual integrity look like for them?"
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, conversely, as I look at… We have a, I have a, an author, uh, that authors one chapter of the book, um, and he is a single celibate man, and I say, "I need, as a married man, I need to learn about sexual integrity from you."
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and so there's something about, uh, the way, and again, this, the metaphor is sing together.
Kutter Callaway:How might we actually come together as a community in the way we, we engage the arts and culture and, and creativity that might actually cultivate a space, um, where we can learn from each other, where we can express those sort of embodied life
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, whether or not that's ultimately satisfying like these nuns are saying, I don't know.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but I know we gotta start forging some of those, uh, uh, possibilities.
Caesar Kalinowski:And in comes the emails.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So w- so, um, what, Cutter, what do you think is- I have to, I have to two-part this question.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you had to, you know, fairly succinctly give us what you think a picture of, you know, a biblical picture of marriage is, c- could, could you or would you be willing to?
Caesar Kalinowski:And then secondly, does that, because of what we said, like, right at the get-go of our conversation today about, wait a minute, we had one view of it, but now the culture has another, and is it the same or it's different?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is a biblical picture of and understanding of marriage, is it even relevant today?
Kutter Callaway:That's a good question.
Caesar Kalinowski:In or outside the church, or is it like, no, marriage is one of those fluid things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or, uh, what do you, what do you think biblically there?
Kutter Callaway:So my take, um, and again, what… The, the, the way I've at least written this book, it emerged in conversation, and so I did that intentionally to say, "I want more than just my perspective here."
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and I actually think that's kind of an important part of us getting in a room and saying, "All right, here's my sense of it.
Kutter Callaway:Here's my read of the biblical text.
Kutter Callaway:Here's what I've inherited.
Kutter Callaway:What about you, and, and where am I blind to this?" So I, I say all that because, um, this is my take, but I'm… I say it with sort of, it's provisional.
Kutter Callaway:Sure.
Kutter Callaway:Right?
Kutter Callaway:That's kinda where I'm at right now.
Kutter Callaway:Um, I'm, I'm not convinced that we, right now, as the church, need to be dictating what marriage means for the larger society.
Kutter Callaway:In large part because, one, I'm committed to a sort of, uh, a, a, a, being a, a, a civil citizen of a pluralistic democracy.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and so that's part of what is in the back of my mind.
Kutter Callaway:But two, I don't think we've figured it out and are, are functioning in a healthy enough way to have any sort of moral standing to do that.
Kutter Callaway:Um, th- that-
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, now you're getting to the crux of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You
Caesar Kalinowski:know?
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, I mean, I, I think, uh, we need to f- uh, you know, get our own house in order before we can even pretend to be the sort of arbiters of what is good or not for everybody else.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and that really is what the book's about.
Kutter Callaway:And so when it comes to biblical marriage, the funny story is, the, the idea sort of emerged.
Kutter Callaway:I wrote a couple drafts.
Kutter Callaway:I sent it to the publisher, and they came back, and they go, "You know, you gave us a lot of really good reasons why not to get married." "Um, but, but this is a book about marriage, so maybe, like, a chapter on why a Christian would get married?"
Caesar Kalinowski:Why it could be awesome.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, may- maybe you should.
Kutter Callaway:So there is a chapter on that.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but it was, it was actually one of the most fun chapters for me to write because, um, I… What I did was I s- I said, "Okay, let's say that this notion of a sort of romantic, Disneyfied love is not what the Christian vision of marriage is."
Kutter Callaway:If we scrub that from it, if, as best we can, what would a, a biblical, quote-unquote… And I, even that, I, I'm not even sure I like that term because what… You know, and you can read this in the book, the… I go through two whole chapters of, of biblical marriage.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and it's a complex thing that- isn't really clear cut.
Kutter Callaway:Um, what does that mean?
Kutter Callaway:Um, and again, it gets back to Paul and Jesus both pretty clearly say marriage is not ultimate, right?
Kutter Callaway:Hmm.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:It's, it's, it's for now.
Kutter Callaway:It's a specific calling that's really hard.
Kutter Callaway:But I basically say, um, here's sort of five ways to think about marriage, and, uh, Christian marriage in particular.
Kutter Callaway:Again, not that this is what everyone in society should do, um, but if we're committed Christians.
Kutter Callaway:And one is, um, uh, justice.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, how can, uh, two people come together and, and commit to enacting justice in their life in the world?
Kutter Callaway:Um, I use the example of, um, C.S. Lewis, uh, who married his wife in part to prevent, uh, her kids from having to go back to an abusive father in the US.
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Kutter Callaway:Huh.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and this was against the wishes of the Anglican Church at the time.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and he basically entered into a civil marriage, uh, for the sake of justice, to say, "I wanna care for specifically the widow and the orphan." Wow.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and now this, you gotta be careful, this isn't like the savior mentality, but it is what if two people when they were saying, "Should I as a Christian get married?"
Kutter Callaway:What if one of the primary things was, uh, I'm not getting married to fulfill some, you know, sexual desire, some longing for kids, some sort of loneliness I'm trying to stave off.
Kutter Callaway:But instead, because this is the avenue through which God is calling me to address justice in the world, I think that's a good reason for Christians to get married.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, you know what's crazy about that first one there is, and I didn't know this till way late in life, I was on a road trip with my dad, and he's in his 70s, and he says, "You know I don't know if you ever knew this, but one of the biggest reasons, you know, your mom and I got married, 'cause my dad was 21, he married my mom at 15, and, and she…
Caesar Kalinowski:They were down south, and it was this whole thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, I was like, "Well, why is that?" And he's like, "Well, because her stepdad was starting to make inappropriate advances towards her, and she was really afraid, and so that's part of why it went so quick and why so young and all that." It's like, I never knew that.
Caesar Kalinowski:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's exactly what you're talking about, but in 1951, so.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:And, and that's where, you know, I, I sense that if you boil down to, like, individual people's stories, and, and I have this in the book, too, all sorts of people's on-the-ground stories.
Kutter Callaway:Um, because I'm, I'm a theologian, so I'll abstract till I'm blue in the face, right?
Kutter Callaway:So, um-
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for that.
Kutter Callaway:And, and, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, but, but to ground it in saying, here's the real-world, tangible, both consequences and the stories that are wonderful, rich stories of, of Christian faithfulness that we wanna hold up.
Kutter Callaway:Like, I wanna hold those stories up.
Kutter Callaway:Um-
Caesar Kalinowski:Give us another one.
Caesar Kalinowski:First one was justice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Second one.
Kutter Callaway:So another one would be, uh, uh, I say, uh, generosity.
Kutter Callaway:So this, this sense in which, um, I'm called… And, and some of these are sort of basic just Christian principles, right?
Kutter Callaway:Um, that, that I'm called to, uh, expand, um, and be hospitable to the other.
Kutter Callaway:You know, you get so many, uh, young married people that, their first year in marriage, it's, it's chaos and, and trauma and trial.
Kutter Callaway:Um, mainly because they're, they are having to create a hospitable space, um, and, and be generous with their space.
Kutter Callaway:I, I find, uh, that the word… Uh, here's, here's a theologian for you.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, the word hospitality comes from this Latin word that, uh, is where we get, uh, hostel, um, hospital, um, but also… And, and host.
Heath Hollensbe:Huh.
Kutter Callaway:But, uh, also, um, being hostile towards somebody, hostility.
Kutter Callaway:And so there's this sense in which to open up hospitality is not to invite friends who I know are gonna repay me in kind, but in fact, it's to open up a space where I invite the enemy, the foreigner, the other into my most intimate of spaces, and I'm vulnerable with them.
Kutter Callaway:And I think that's a lot of how first, that first season of marriage is of, like, negotiating, um, this shared space that you didn't have before.
Kutter Callaway:And as a couple, if that is your calling, not only to learn how to do that with each other, but then with others in your life.
Kutter Callaway:So then it's the single people who are a part of our community, um, the widows, the people, the, you know, the single moms who might have been married and now have kids, the people who've never been married but don't have a, you know, a community, these sort of things.
Kutter Callaway:How are we called to create that sort of generous space and hospitality in and through marriage?
Kutter Callaway:Not, um, what we generally do, and that is, you know, you have this image, um, of at the wedding ceremony where the two, the couple turns their back on the community and commits to one another, right?
Kutter Callaway:Um, as if to say We, our love is sort of this dyadic union.
Kutter Callaway:It has nothing to do with everybody else.
Kutter Callaway:And I'm saying Christian marriage is actually The reason that, that Paul talks about sexuality so much is because Christian marriage is inviting the community of faith into your bedroom.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and,
Caesar Kalinowski:and that- See, people don't, people don't get that though, and when we s- No.
Caesar Kalinowski:No … and we've talked about on the show a lot that marriage may be, and this is, I think this might be, this might lean into why the church has idolized it a little bit, uh, if they actually understood it, but that marriage may be one of the strongest pictures of the Gospel- Oh, yeah … that God's given us to display.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, yeah, and an- another reason why we should take it all the more seriously, um, and not treat it as sort of an answer to these, these things it was never meant to answer, right?
Kutter Callaway:That's a good one, man.
Kutter Callaway:It was never, it was never meant to bear the, the weight of, of some of the things we ask it to bear.
Kutter Callaway:And then finally, well, not finally, uh, there's a number, but this is the third one.
Kutter Callaway:Um, really, what I, how I couch it is, um, a, a, a call to love, right?
Kutter Callaway:And, and I know that sounds basic, but what I mean by that, um, is I, I've, I, I go round and round… Then another book that could be written is Breaking the Childbearing Idol.
Kutter Callaway:Mm. Um, because the very next thing that I see most, uh, Christian couples deal with, um, e- especially women, uh, is the pressure of having children and, and the, the devastation that's caused when women are unable, for any number of reasons, to bear children.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and that, that's a real thing.
Kutter Callaway:I mean, my wife, I mean, we struggled with infertility for a number of years.
Kutter Callaway:We do now have children, but, uh, I saw a woman who really felt called to have children and what that did to her, um, when she couldn't.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:And so I f- I actually think, um, that Christian… I don't think the only reason you should get married is to have kids, but I do think if, if you are a, a couple and you're considering marriage as Christians, and you are at the outset saying, "We will not have children, and we will not, uh, consider adoption or fostering or anything else," in other words, "We will not expand beyond the two of us- Mm
Kutter Callaway:in love," I think you should maybe pause and say, "I may be getting married for the wrong reasons." Now, that doesn't mean every Christian couple should have kids or should adopt or should foster, but if it's not even a possibility in your imagination, if you're considering marriage for, um, purely intrinsically self-motivated reasons, I don't think that's necessarily Christian marriage.
Kutter Callaway:Wow.
Kutter Callaway:I think Christian marriage is a call to extend and move outside of ourselves in love, and the, the most tangible way I see that is, again, caring for orphans.
Kutter Callaway:We have so many foster children and orphans that need families that to me, that is a, a profound, again, a demonstration of the Gospel- Amen.
Kutter Callaway:Amen
Kutter Callaway:that Ch- Christians can, can do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Powerful.
Heath Hollensbe:What's your wife think about all this, uh, this- … this new writing you're doing here?
Kutter Callaway:Uh, she is supportive of it.
Kutter Callaway:Um, I, I, I actually, I wrote this book… Again, I'm an academic.
Kutter Callaway:Um, every one of my books n- one to the next is written in the hopes that she'll read it.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and I'm, I'm hoping with this one it'll be the case.
Kutter Callaway:She's written, she's read, read some, uh, drafts of it, but not the whole thing yet.
Kutter Callaway:Oh,
Caesar Kalinowski:boy.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and so, but no, I've told her everything that's in it, and she is, is fully supportive of it.
Kutter Callaway:I- That's
Caesar Kalinowski:great
Caesar Kalinowski:… Kutter Callaway: again, I, I I got lucky.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I've often said with her that I think she could probably have been married to anybody and had a successful, great marriage.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, m- I basically, there was one person that could have worked well with me.
Heath Hollensbe:Ooh, I'm gonna use that-
Kutter Callaway:There.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah … 'cause that's true for me too.
Kutter Callaway:So, um- That's true … yeah, and, and I honestly, I mean, we got married so young, and we're s- and again, n- no one was telling us no.
Kutter Callaway:There wasn't anything like that, but, but so much could have changed.
Kutter Callaway:So much I, I, I just, I, I, we knew ourselves so little, um, that I, I count myself incredibly fortunate that, um, I love my marriage, and I think it's wonderful.
Kutter Callaway:But I also am part of a, a family, both my immediate family and extended, um, that have m- many, many marriages that just collapsed- Yeah … and were brutal, brutal things that I would not wish upon anybody.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and, and that's part of where I wanna go and say, "Well, wait a minute. Maybe part of what we wanna do is, is, um, is think through before we get married," as opposed to, how do we prevent the divorce that was always gonna happen,
Caesar Kalinowski:right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh- Well, it so- it sounds like some of the first steps towards it, at least we'll talk from within the church at this point, is to maybe shift some of our expectations and/or the weight and reasoning- Yep
Caesar Kalinowski:we place upon people unnecessarily- Yep … and the stripping of their humanity and identity- Yep … if they don't somehow fit under these- Yep … I don't even know where they came from, set of parameters.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Well, and that's, and, and I, that is, I think, the, the, the answer and the hardest thing to do.
Kutter Callaway:And I start the book, and we can end it here this way too, is with the story that really it comes in, in the form of narrative more than anything else, what you're talking about.
Kutter Callaway:And I open with this story that is in a kid's book that I read to my daughters, and I have to change 'cause I, it horrifies me.
Kutter Callaway:Hm.
Kutter Callaway:And it's about Mr. and Mrs. Mouse, and, you know, here's Mr. Mouse, and he is lonely.
Kutter Callaway:And here's Mrs. Mou- and this is literally what it says.
Kutter Callaway:Here's Mrs. Mouse.
Kutter Callaway:She's lonely, too.
Kutter Callaway:Um, they find each other, and so Mr.
Kutter Callaway:Mouse goes from door to door to try to find her again, and when he finally meets her, uh, he says, "I really like you, Mrs. Mouse. Let's get married." So they get Preacher Mole, and they get married, and they're never lonely again.
Heath Hollensbe:Whoa.
Kutter Callaway:Um, now this is, this is a kid's storybook.
Heath Hollensbe:Hm.
Kutter Callaway:Uh, and then when you add to that all of the, you know, the Disney Princess films and everything else that they watch, and then the, when they get a little older, the, the Taylor Swift music and then The Bachelor and Bachelorette and all of these cultural narratives, and then they walk into church, and they're told, "God has an ordained spouse for you, that you just need to wait long enough," all of a sudden you get this whole life of narratives that are powerfully telling you who you should be and how you failed if you're not that thing.
Kutter Callaway:Ah.
Kutter Callaway:Um, and that's the tough thing that we need to rework, um, if we're gonna undo the power of those narratives.
Heath Hollensbe:Geez, man.
Heath Hollensbe:That is so good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, Cutter, thanks so much again, and we're excited, man, to have you on, and we're excited for the book to come out so we can go deeper into these things.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, you've certainly given us a, an awful lot to think about and chew on.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm gonna get ready for all the emails and posts coming in- … where people are ticked off at us, and I'll just- Yeah … we'll forward those to you, if that's okay.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah.
Kutter Callaway:Yeah, ju- you can blind copy me on them, but, uh- You know, don't, don't distribute my email there.
Kutter Callaway:That'd be great.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's- All righty.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks, Ketter.
Heath Hollensbe:We'll talk to you soon, man.
Kutter Callaway:Cool.
Kutter Callaway:Hey, thanks a bunch.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, Caesar, man, what a cool topic.
Heath Hollensbe:I, you know, I
Caesar Kalinowski:feel like- Cool guy, cool topic
Caesar Kalinowski:… Heath Hollensbe: I feel like we often hit the marriage thing pretty hard, and I thought it was cool to hear from the singleness, too, like the way he kinda focused on-
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, a little bit of a, a little bit of a slight turn from what I thought maybe we were going.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I'm really excited- Mm … about what that says because i- it's now- Yeah … a little bit of conviction falling here, you know, speaking to a smart brother about this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I am just certain that there's ways that I've celebrated my marriage around people- Sure … or like, "Hey, yeah," you know, like, "This year, married 35 years this year," you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, or, and/or talked about marriage that has maybe made it not that celebratory for some people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, "Oh, what am I… I'm lacking here," you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And even, like, one of my own kids is not yet married, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, what's she hearing that?
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that was super, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm really excited about that, so.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, let's jump to the big three, which is the big three takeaways we'd love for you to get from this episode right now, and you can get them for free by going to everydaydisciple.com/bigthree.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what would you say the big three are for this week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I got them right here.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was thinking about this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and, and, and by the way, too, the reason we write them down and people could download them is because we try to pack these.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, this is sorta like if nothing else, here's big three takeaways, stuff that hit our heart.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And maybe it encapsulates the episode in some ways.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I know people are driving or they're at the gym or out walking or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So here they are, big three for this week.
Caesar Kalinowski:First, I think many of the church's narratives have limited our understanding of marriage and obscure our view of this life-giving and kingdom-serving roles that single people in the church can play.
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, you know, think about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus was single his entire life and is the most whole, complete picture of both humanness and who God himself is.
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:So don't limit your involvement or desires to serve God inner, in or outside the structured church based on your marital status, whether single or married.
Caesar Kalinowski:In Christ, you know, remember, you have the spirit of the living God inside you, and the church, that's all of us- Yep … we need you.
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, number two.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, number two: God created you in his image, all of us, perfectly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Before you were, or if you ever get married.
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, we're, we st- we start out image bearers.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not, it's, it's … Yeah, marriage is not built into that.
Caesar Kalinowski:We are image bearers, and He loves you, and He sees you complete apart from any "achievements," quote-unquote, that you make in your life.
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Caesar Kalinowski:And while marriage is a beautiful gift from God, and it's, and it is a beautiful picture, we've talked about this before, of the Gospel in action, marriage was never intended to make you a whole person.
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Caesar Kalinowski:You are completed in and for Christ for His glory alone.
Heath Hollensbe:Wow.
Heath Hollensbe:That's good, man.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, number three.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is a call to myself a- a- and, and everyone listening.
Caesar Kalinowski:Think about the language that you use to talk about marriage to single people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it life-giving or is it limiting?
Heath Hollensbe:Mm.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it filled with a sort of wait for God focus or a fullness in Christ focus?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, if you're single, what aspect of your identity and overall happiness are you basing on someday getting married?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a hard question to ask.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's sort of the idols start to lurk, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Have you placed limitations on yourself and all that God wants to do in and through your life as you wait for some possible future union?
Caesar Kalinowski:Often we do.
Caesar Kalinowski:We kinda put, put it in neutral, I think- Mm … in areas of our life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe this could be one for some single people, too, kind of parked in neutral waiting for that.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Also, remember, the whole church is your family, not just someday when you get married, you have a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:You have a huge family.
Caesar Kalinowski:There should be no lonely people in the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Mm. We've got this amazing family.
Heath Hollensbe:That's a good word, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, brother.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for the big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Again, um, you can-
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks again, Cutter.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah … yeah, Cutter, coolest name out there.
Heath Hollensbe:You get the big three by going to EverydayDisciple.com/bigthree, and just a reminder that Breaking the Marriage Idol, the subtitle Reconstructing Our Cultural and Spiritual Norms, feel free to pick it up on Amazon.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, we'll provide a link to it as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um- There'll be a link in the show notes there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, on- So regardless of when you hear it, just go to the show notes, and, uh, you'll find the link to the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:You'll get the link.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.