Church Discipline That Heals, Not Harms
Church discipline is a term found nowhere in the Bible. But it is taught and practiced, often rather harshly. And many have been hurt by churches not doing this correctly. It can be difficult to do in ways that show the love of God.
This week on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, we discuss how to do church discipline in a way that heals and restores… instead of just “handing people over to Satan” and being done with them. 😕
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- How Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 18 may surprise you when read in its full context.
- Who should be involved in doing church discipline and when.
- What it really means to “turn someone over to Satan”.
- Practical steps for addressing someone who has sinned against you.
From this episode:
“It is rare that we, ourselves, don’t also have at least some role in the situation where someone has hurt us or sinned against us. A good starting point is to humble ourselves and seek the other person’s forgiveness before approaching them about their sin against us. I think you’ll be surprised at what will happen after that!”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching on Disciple-making and Missional Living with Caesar & Tina
Missio Publishing – More Missional Books and Resources
Caesar Kalinowski’s Website and Blog with Loads of Resources
In light of today’s topics, you might find these posts and videos helpful:
Transcript
So what Jesus is saying here is, hey, if you've tried to help a person out of their sin, which is unbelief, and you and a few other people have done it, and even the whole community is now involved, and they still won't do it, Stop treating them like they are a believer and they get it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Treat them like you would treat a pagan, which is like, Oh, you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't understand this.
Caesar Kalinowski:We gotta back way up in the story now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:We gotta go way back.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know the heart of the father.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know he's created them in his image.
Caesar Kalinowski:What he says is true of them.
Caesar Kalinowski:The authority and privilege they now live with.
Caesar Kalinowski:His love, his sacrifice for them.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know any of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's how you have to treat 'em.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, man, this sounds so different than, uh, a lot of what I've heard about church discipline.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, I remember having some friends in Southern California that went to a church and they would like publicly point out in the middle of their service and the pastor would call 'em out and say, you're not welcome here.
Heath Hollensbe:And they'd usher the people out the back doors.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's just so bad.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast where you'll learn how to live with.
Heath Hollensbe:greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Cesar Kalanowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, any cool reviews coming in?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, we actually had a great review come in, uh, this week.
Heath Hollensbe:It came in from Brian Jennings 33 who said this podcast is a brilliant resource.
Heath Hollensbe:It's shaped my mind, motivated me to seek new ways to love my neighbor.
Heath Hollensbe:It's fun and engaging.
Heath Hollensbe:You won't be sorry if you give it a try.
Heath Hollensbe:So
Heath Hollensbe:Brian Jennings.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, thanks.
Caesar Kalinowski:You guys are probably thinking like, oh, they only read the good ones.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, man, we only get good ones.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Heath Hollensbe:we did.
Heath Hollensbe:I was just saying we got one one star.
Heath Hollensbe:I just,
Heath Hollensbe:oh, wow.
Heath Hollensbe:Zinger.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love those.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:One of my books, like I got like a one or something star review on Amazon.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was actually so accurate.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was like the guy completely missed the point and then he went on to describe why and I was like, but that's exactly what the books So it was like my favorite review So it can happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey,
Caesar Kalinowski:so today we're talking about church discipline, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Do you have any background with it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Happy?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I've been disciplined.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, so have I. I have.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, you've worked in a large church in the past Yeah, there had to be standards with how to control
Heath Hollensbe:rowdy Rowdy members, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's not even rowdy sometimes.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I think, yes, I have.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've seen it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've witnessed it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think I've seen it done pretty well and really accomplished some wonderful restoration and repentance and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've also seen it done icky where you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why would we ever?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not the love of Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:What, like, and then, you know, there's a lot of proof texting and a lot of verses being pointed to and it's like, yeah, but that's not what that means at all.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, well, that's what the elders thought, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:So yeah, I've kind of seen, I've been, I've seen both sides of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I kind of have been on both sides of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Some people listening know me well enough to know, like, oh yeah, I was sitting there that one time and that was, beep, kind of bad news.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, this episode actually came from, I was reading, uh, a couple of weeks back in Matthew 18, specifically on how to take steps if your brother sinned against you.
Heath Hollensbe:And the bright moment that kind of clicked into my head for me.
Heath Hollensbe:Was when Jesus actually said you're supposed to treat them like a Gentile or a tax collector and the aha moment was like How would Jesus want us to treat tax collectors?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly So there it is, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's there's some big things in that verse that are there's so I think apparent once you just stop to read them yeah, instead of sort of taking the Uh, too often cultural ex culture, church culturally accepted, like, this is what we do.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like, well, yeah, but what does it say?
Caesar Kalinowski:And then of course, good hermeneutical work is like, let's back up a little and let's go a little further just to see what's like, what was the context, you know, because you could take anything in life or in scripture way out of context so, so easily.
Caesar Kalinowski:Make
Heath Hollensbe:it fit your agenda.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you know, wait, here's the quote, Caesar said to Heath, kiss my wife.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, wait, what?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's like, well, right before that I said, she just made you a special cake.
Caesar Kalinowski:You might want to just kiss my wife cause she loves you and made you this cake for your birthday and everybody's going to get to enjoy it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pick and pull what you want.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, so let's take a look at that passage in Matthew that you're referring to.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's Matthew 18, 15 to 17.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And by the way, before we can get into this, we're talking about church discipline today.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want to say that the word discipline is the same root word and meaning as Disciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So when you discipline your kids, really the goal is to disciple them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that should tell us something right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, by the way, it doesn't even say church discipline in Matthew 18, but we have called it the big church discipline, you know, thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:But Jesus is, by the way, in this passage, he's talking to his disciples and he's teaching them about dealing with other disciples or brothers and sisters here.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, and, and it's not a witch hunt of anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's talking about, Hey, when you think you've been sinned against.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's not like, Hey, become the sin police.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then like approach everybody and then if they don't agree, take someone else, you know, so, okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I want to start off first though, again, I'm going to take my own medicine by reading the verses just before this passage to see what Jesus was talking to his disciples about.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Matthew 18 writes, we'll start in verse 12.
Caesar Kalinowski:He goes, what do you think?
Caesar Kalinowski:If a man owns a hundred sheep, so it's a parable, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the 99 on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
Caesar Kalinowski:And if he finds it truly, I tell you, he's happier about the one sheep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then about the 99 that didn't wander off.
Caesar Kalinowski:In the same way your father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.
Caesar Kalinowski:So like, what do you hear in that passage?
Caesar Kalinowski:Just that, like this is a parable, we've all heard it before about the 99 sheep and the one that got away, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But what do you hear in there?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's the heart of God?
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what Jesus is talking about right as he tips into this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, okay, so you got that?
Caesar Kalinowski:He's pursuing, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:He's pursuing the one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pursuing the one for the purpose of what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, restoring him back to the fold.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, get him, get him back home.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's actually more stoked about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then the other 99 meaning I'm not so much worried about what the other nine we're thinking or doing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, you know Actually, and sometimes we're so worried about like, oh if I don't you know Or if we don't do this like right or something everybody's gonna think we're soft as leaders or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus is gonna Like do you see the heart of this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm?
Caesar Kalinowski:There's one God's heart is that none would be lost.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go after him, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Go after him to restore.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, you know, not to beat him.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:So now we can look at this, this passage and, uh, it's very often quoted and misused.
Caesar Kalinowski:So starting in 15, then Jesus goes on, if your brother or sister sins against you, now remember sin is always unbelief.
Caesar Kalinowski:Scripture teaches that.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've talked about it over and over on the show.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sin, It's unbelief in what's true about God, believing a lie about God, that leads to sin, that leads to us living, like, believing something false about a brother, about ourselves, and then living out of that lie.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's what sin is throughout all of scripture, so we have to map that onto that right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if a brother or sister sins, and the implication here is against you, in fact some versions say against you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's not a witch hunt.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's just, hey, if you think that because of unbelief about God, or about what he says is true of you, or that person, person sins against you, go and point out their fault, their unbelief, just between the two of you, Jesus says.
Caesar Kalinowski:And now if they listen to you, you've won them over.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, sometimes that's all it takes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we call that gospeling someone's heart, using our gospel fluency to help them see the unbelief behind their action was like, Hey man, I think you might've been believing this about me and maybe this about God.
Caesar Kalinowski:And Uh, let's work on that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's bring that up.
Caesar Kalinowski:If they listen to you, you've won them over.
Caesar Kalinowski:Verse 16, but if they won't listen, take one or two others.
Caesar Kalinowski:So the along with you to go talk to that person so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses and that every matter established by testimony or two or three witnesses comes in quotations.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's referencing sort of Old Testament way of dealing with things too.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's saying, Hey, if a person won't listen to you, maybe if you take some other people that they know and trust, so this isn't like strangers.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Two or three witnesses because Mary he's talking to is like group of disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:He says now if they were still refuse To listen tell it to the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:That means go to a wider circle.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now remember it The church is people the church is not a building or it's not a church service There weren't any of those in Jesus world at that time So when he says if they still refuse to listen tell it to the church, he's saying well then you might need to Let others kind of be warned, you know, so to speak and if they still refuse to listen even to the church Even to everybody else in your community treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector And like you said there and it's it's brilliant.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's the heart of it It's the heart of that passage right before it with the 99 sheep and the one that got away is how would you treat a pagan?
Caesar Kalinowski:Which is commonly a word that we commonly refer to people who are outside the faith outside of belief far from God or whatever Or in, he's even throwing a tax collector on there, which like you could be a tax collector in Jesus time, Matthew, and still be with Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'm, you know, Matthew's sitting there listening to this, he's got to be going gulp, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, maybe it's even a wink.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm seriously, it might even be a wink nudge, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because like some of the other disciples did not like the fact that Matthew was hanging around.
Caesar Kalinowski:In fact, we don't know what was going on behind this.
Caesar Kalinowski:And maybe there was a bit of a rift going, you know, we don't know, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But how are we supposed to treat unbelievers?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like they're part of the family that is.
Caesar Kalinowski:We treat them like family, we treat them with love, with patience.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's going on here is for me to go and speak to someone who's like not a believer, doesn't know the word of God, doesn't know Christ, and expect them to act like a Christian, expect them to live in light of the truth about who God is when they don't know him, is ridiculous.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's unfair.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think we do that often as Christians.
Caesar Kalinowski:We expect, you know, we're like just horrified that someone doesn't like go along with what Christianity says.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, but they don't know that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why would they?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're going to go with what the flesh feels best and, you know, fear of man issues and protect themselves.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, so what, what's, what Jesus is saying here is, Hey, if you've tried to help a person out of their sin, which is unbelief, and you and a few other people have done it, and even the whole community is now involved and they still won't do it, stop treating them like they are a believer and they get it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Treat them like you would treat a pagan, which is like, Oh, you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't understand this.
Caesar Kalinowski:We got to back way up in the story now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:We got to go way back.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know the heart of the father.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know what he's now, he's created them in his image.
Caesar Kalinowski:What he says is true of them, the authority and privilege they now live with, his love, his sacrifice for them.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know any of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's how you have to treat them.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, this sounds so different than a lot of what I've heard about church discipline.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, I remember having some friends in Southern California that went to a church and they would like publicly.
Heath Hollensbe:Point out in the middle of their service and the pastor would call them out and say you're not welcome here And they'd usher the people at the back doors That's it's just such a bad reading and you know The one thing when it comes to church discipline is that it's really common for us to even add the passage So you take the passage from Matthew 18, but then you pull this really quick tag from 1st Corinthians 5 that hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so his spirit might be saved on the day of the Lord.
Heath Hollensbe:Right.
Heath Hollensbe:Talk about like, we kind
Caesar Kalinowski:of
Heath Hollensbe:combining verses as those together.
Heath Hollensbe:Jesus
Caesar Kalinowski:is talking one time, 30 years later, Paul's speaking to, yeah, so let's look at that because you know What do you think is happening here?
Caesar Kalinowski:What the heck does it mean to turn someone over to Satan?
Caesar Kalinowski:So here's what's going on in 1 Corinthians 5 and why it's really a completely different thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I'm not saying it can never be related, but, but what Paul, Paul's talking to believers here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Jesus was talking to his disciples at that point.
Caesar Kalinowski:Some were not yet believers.
Caesar Kalinowski:We know that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:But he's saying, here's how you deal with it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And boy, if someone is just.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, in the fold, but not acting like they get it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you've tried all you can, treat them like a pagan.
Caesar Kalinowski:Treat them like an unbeliever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, love them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Be patient.
Caesar Kalinowski:Back way up.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, don't assume that they're going to get it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't put them into leadership.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't, you know, don't put them in charge of stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let you know, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Now Paul is addressing, um, the Corinthian church here.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm going to kind of just run through this real quick because this isn't the main point of our thing today.
Caesar Kalinowski:But, um, and thanks for some help on this, John Piper.
Caesar Kalinowski:I appreciate it.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's wicked smart on this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Paul's addressing the Corinthians, which is a sinful group of immature believers as a whole.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's a letter to the whole church going like, whoa, some stuff's really gone bad.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's, he's calling them out on their immorality and their pride connected to being so tolerant with someone who's in an incestuous relationship.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You ever hear of churches like that today?
Caesar Kalinowski:They're so stoked about their tolerance that they tolerate sin, and there's not just love the person, but like, no, it's okay now.
Caesar Kalinowski:We won't want to make anybody feel bad.
Caesar Kalinowski:So
Heath Hollensbe:we'll almost celebrate.
Heath Hollensbe:So they're kind
Caesar Kalinowski:of prideful about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're like, aren't we great?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, isn't it great that we're so tolerant?
Caesar Kalinowski:And so Paul's going, no, and it, and it may be that simply putting a person out of the community.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is the same as handing him over to Satan, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what Paul says to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I don't think so.
Caesar Kalinowski:When Paul says at the end of verse four, With the power of the Lord Jesus, I think he shows us something more is going on here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Something that takes the power of Jesus to actually perform.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Paul did it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Did it at least one other time that we know about in 1st Timothy 1 20.
Caesar Kalinowski:He said I handed over I can't even pronounce their names Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan so they might be taught not to blaspheme Hmm, so like what do you mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:He physically like called up Satan and said hey, man, I'm handing over You know what's going on?
Caesar Kalinowski:What seems to be happening here is something like what happened in the book of Job Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's some evidence that that's what's, that's what's being referenced here because it's the same language.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's only one other place in the Bible outside of Paul's letter where we hear the handing someone over to Satan language.
Caesar Kalinowski:And those words occur in Job 2.
Caesar Kalinowski:6. Now after that, when that said about Job, the next verse says, Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and he smote Job.
Caesar Kalinowski:It means he crushed him with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now the result of God's gracious purpose, what's going on there?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's way later in the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:Job 42, we see, Now my eyes see you, O Lord, and I despise myself, and I repent in dust and ashes.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's he, what's he despising about himself?
Caesar Kalinowski:My unbelief that you were good.
Caesar Kalinowski:What was true about you all along and how you viewed me in my life and all the blessings I had.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Satan became the means under which God's sovereign control, he used it to purify Job's heart and bring him closer.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then he poured crazy blessing on him, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, in 2 Corinthians 12, Paul describes, like this is sort of further proof, he describes his own thorn in the flesh as a messenger of Satan.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which, what, like Satan showed up and put a thorn in his foot, like, you know, like in the cartoons when the lion gets a thorn in his paw.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, he's saying it's like a messenger of Satan, which God appoints for Paul's humility and Christ's glory.
Caesar Kalinowski:Verse 7 says, to keep me from exalting myself, therefore I was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me.
Caesar Kalinowski:That means to slow me down, to sort of hinder me, you know, my progress, to keep me from exalting myself.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's exactly what we see with Job.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, when Paul prayed that Jesus would take it over, You know, take his thorn away.
Caesar Kalinowski:The answer you got was my grace is sufficient for you for power is perfected in weakness.
Caesar Kalinowski:So notice that the one who's in control in all these cases, whether the messenger Satan or whatever stays or goes, it's Christ God's in control.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is why it's so significant in our text here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Verse four, when Paul says that, you know, about handing someone over to Satan, it's with the power of the Lord Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:See we don't have the power.
Caesar Kalinowski:to change anyone.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:I can't even change myself, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or the authority to do, change someone else.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Paul's hope.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that the result of handing over this man to Satan will be the salvation of his spirit at the day of Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, Paul's aim, and I'm going to suggest our aim, in quote, handing someone over to Satan, is that maybe some striking misery in their life will come in such a way that they'll say, much like Job, Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:My eyes have now seen the Lord, the truth of who he is and despise myself and my, all my own strivings to be my own God and all that and repent.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if, if, let me just say, if someone in your community is very obviously guilty of gross sexual sin, and you've tried speaking with them about it and about the truth of who God is, and you've done this because remember that Matthew 18 came way before first Corinthians.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you've tried all that you've gone personally, and then with.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another couple of brothers or sisters and then the wider circle of your, you know, the community you do life with uh, and, and, and they're just not believing who God is and who he has made them to be and live and it has not helped or caused them to repent, then it seems maybe in this type of situation, like Paul's saying, It's okay for us to kind of hope, in fact, that something hard is going to happen in their lives to make them turn their heads and their hearts and their perspectives back to truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I have family members, okay, I'll just be honest with you, who are addicts, and I can recall times where our family has prayed for them to hit rock bottom, just to hit super rock bottom, you know, have hard times in their life, but that God would spare their life so that they might then at that point look up and see Jesus and begin to realize the truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's what Paul's doing in that, in that verse there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Clearly what he's, he's not, you know, how do you hand them over to Satan?
Caesar Kalinowski:He's like, you now ignore them.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, you have to take Paul's words in light of the words of Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:You have to, you know, always, always, always have to read Paul and everything else through the lens of Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:In fact, some stuff I've been reading lately is like read the whole Bible through the lens of Jesus and what he's accomplished and that it's going to get so much more beautiful and powerful and happy and all of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like
Heath Hollensbe:one thing he said that.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, I want to just say it again because it was so good.
Heath Hollensbe:I've never seen this.
Heath Hollensbe:Is that, is that in the situation of Job, Satan became the means under God's sovereign control of purifying Job's heart and bringing him closer than ever to God.
Heath Hollensbe:So this mindset of like, turn him over to Satan, let him, let him burn, like, no, like.
Heath Hollensbe:No, no, no.
Heath Hollensbe:It was never for the purpose of that.
Heath Hollensbe:It was actually for the pursuit of Satan being the, the mechanism that brought Job closer to God.
Heath Hollensbe:And that's crazy.
Heath Hollensbe:So turn him over to Satan.
Heath Hollensbe:That's
Caesar Kalinowski:right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And when I, when I read this in light of what Jesus said.
Caesar Kalinowski:So do this as community and with friendship and remember again, it was like go to the church He never meant to the church service Sure, because because if you're gonna say that then you have to go capital C Church, which means the whole entire Universal Church Which means what you have to now contact?
Caesar Kalinowski:25, 50, 100 million people or something, you know, that can't mean that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it also, we look at the word discipline and it means discipleship and discipleship is that process of moving from unbelief to belief.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's the goal.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's always the goal.
Caesar Kalinowski:So read Paul and that one really weird, rare instance in light of what Jesus said and connect it back to the same language being what happened with Job and I think we get a pretty good idea of what's going on there.
Caesar Kalinowski:So what would you say, like, a
Heath Hollensbe:healthy and even a helpful approach would look like?
Heath Hollensbe:How do you, how do you healthy embrace the person who's wronged you?
Heath Hollensbe:As we've talked about a
Caesar Kalinowski:little bit earlier.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really like that passage, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it's, it's everything we need there, but I like the message version of that passage that we looked at in Matthew 18.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it shows us a more realistic and helpful approach to sin and unbelief.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, so let me just read that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:It'll sound kind of familiar, but a little bit tweaked and I love it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, he says, if a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him, work it out between the two of you.
Caesar Kalinowski:If he listens, you've made a friend.
Caesar Kalinowski:If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest and try again.
Caesar Kalinowski:If he still won't listen, tell the church, and he doesn't mean the church service, he's saying tell, like, tell others in your community.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we're talking about missional communities here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, most often, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:If you won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch.
Caesar Kalinowski:Confront him with the need for repentance and offer again God's forgiving love.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, it's so good.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's so good.
Caesar Kalinowski:So like if you just like, man, Like if I'm coming to you, Heath, like, Heath, I don't know if you know this, but when you, when you did that, or when you said that, that really hurt me, and I've kind of said it did before, you still continue to do it, and I, you know, like, let's talk about what we're not believing here, what you're not believing about God and truth, and maybe what you're not believing to be true about me, and I'm just like, no, and I won't repent, meaning change my mind, that's what that word means, about change my mind about it, um, Then offer again, God's forgiving love.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I don't know if I can forgive you right now, brother, but I am gonna offer you God's forgiving love.
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause Jesus already died for you on the cross.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that sin against me.
Caesar Kalinowski:I am gonna, I'm gonna sort of.
Caesar Kalinowski:Chew on it, and process through it, even though you're not repenting yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna chew on it in light of the fact that Jesus died to forgive it, and it is forgiven.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm also a sinner.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I got a whole bunch on that same list of sins that I've not yet seen repented of.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Changed my mind about.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they're still forgiven too.
Caesar Kalinowski:So now let's quickly, let's look at the other book and that Jesus gives us for how to see and understand this teaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because right after those passages on dealing with a hurt or sin against you, Jesus answers a question from one of his disciples, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Here's impetuous Peter, always right off to the dash.
Caesar Kalinowski:I always got the answer quick, boom, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Then Peter, it says in verse 21, came to Jesus and asked, he's kind of like, well, wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's kind of, you kind of see it here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, wait a minute, Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:How many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me?
Caesar Kalinowski:Up to seven times?
Caesar Kalinowski:And he's trying to give an absurd, you know, absurd number.
Caesar Kalinowski:He wants law.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus answered, I tell you not seven times, but 77 or some verses or some translations go 70 times seven, which is more than 77, which kind of is meant to be like infinity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just keep doing it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we see from Jesus here, the goal and hope of any discipline slash discipleship I'll say is love and forgiveness.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which is exactly what God sent Jesus to show us and offer us.
Caesar Kalinowski:See how it's all in light of the big plan?
Caesar Kalinowski:And exactly what we now get to show and offer to others.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember too, it's, it is rare that we don't also have at least some role in the situation.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where someone's hurt us or sinned against us.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's generally not like, I was just walking down the street, I was reading my Bible, sitting on a park bench, and Heath just ran up and, you know, Smacked you in the face.
Caesar Kalinowski:Poured oil, yeah, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So usually it has something to do with language, conversation, uh, backbiting, gossip, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, but.
Caesar Kalinowski:We usually have some part in something so a good starting place before you approach a person is to humble ourselves and Seek that person's forgiveness before approaching them about their sin Like if there's any part of it where the spirit caption goes, you know I I know that that was like kind of small in your mind compared to theirs.
Caesar Kalinowski:God doesn't rank sin Just go and humble yourself.
Caesar Kalinowski:God exalts to humble like go and humble yourself and seek their Their forgiveness before approaching them about their sin and I think you'd be surprised what'll happen right after that I really do you don't start off by quoting scripture, you know out of context the other person I don't have to turn you over to Satan Stay humble And the one thing that we remember the one thing we have most in common with that other person is our own ability to sin And our need for Jesus So we're right there in need.
Caesar Kalinowski:So,
Heath Hollensbe:you know, I'm going to say this, uh, is that sometimes when we're writing out these shows, it's like, ah, this could be a throwaway.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, let's be a great episode.
Heath Hollensbe:And sometimes they just catch me off guard.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm like, man, this turned out so much better than I thought the script looked like.
Heath Hollensbe:And this is one of those episodes because if we actually lived like this, and pastors that listen to the show actually led churches where this was the way we dealt with things?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:I think about the witness that that would allow us to have.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, I think we
Caesar Kalinowski:get to, and I, and if anybody disagrees with this, and please, just, you know, jump on Facebook.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you're not in the group, join the group, just, you know, search up Everyday Disciple podcast in Facebook, go join the group and think, well, I don't want to join the group just to disagree.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, no, you get to.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's how we learn, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I, but I'm going to challenge anybody listening to say like, that I twisted those scriptures.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't think so.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I, I've, like I said, I've been through this on both sides of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've received it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've had to deal, you know, church discipline and I researched hard before this episode and I, and the gospel always wins.
Caesar Kalinowski:Love is huge.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:All right.
Heath Hollensbe:Let's get to the big three.
Heath Hollensbe:These are the big three, if nothing else, the three takeaways that we want you to get from this episode.
Heath Hollensbe:And if you're doing something and even jogging or you're dropping off kids or changing diapers and you can't write anything great down from the show, we're going to give it to you beautifully written out and you get it for free.
Heath Hollensbe:by going to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what are the big three takeaways that we got for this week's episode?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, first thing, don't, don't miss this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Discipline in church and in community is about discipleship and restoration.
Caesar Kalinowski:Your goal is to help the other person move from unbelief to belief in the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's always done in private first.
Caesar Kalinowski:And only includes others after you've not been able to come to resolution with the other person.
Caesar Kalinowski:Beware of gossip here.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've seen that too often.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you know, like, Oh, that person sinned against you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll talk to 85 people and then they'll all say the same thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, go talk to that person.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go talk to her.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:Include others that have observed the same sin in the other person when possible.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's the two people you want to take with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you just, if they're not, And you've talked to the person, only bring other mature and trustworthy people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So like, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, seek those people out.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's where you might talk to an elder or someone like that in your church.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Second one, uh, big three, God's desire is that none of us or anybody should be lost or stay outside of his family.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:We saw that over and over in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like that lost the, the one of the 99 sheep, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's the whole thing with Joe, even God's like, ah, he wanted to enrich in his relationship with God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Second Peter 8, 8 to 9 reminds us, but do not forget this one thing, dear friends with the Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Lord's not slow to keep in his promise as some understand slowness and said he's patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Caesar Kalinowski:So be patient with others just as the Lord's patient with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:God offers forgiveness and it's way beyond 70 times seven.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the third thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Examine your own heart and actions in any manner before being quick to approach and accuse someone else of sinning against you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I can't tell you how many times I'm just like, man, when I see that guy, I'm gonna, man, I'm gonna ring that guy, his neck, you know, it's like, I'm gonna show him where he was hurting me in such a sin, you know, but, but examine your own heart first, then go to that person in humility as a fellow sinner, someone who often acts out in unbelief and fear yourself and start confessing anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:You need to own up to in the situation.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then try your best to explain to them why, what exactly they've done or said hurt you and why you believe it's coming from a lie about God or you or themselves, that they may not be believing the truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:Be sure to pray for the spirit's wisdom to guide you before, during, and after these circumstances in these conversations.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember the Holy Spirit, God alone grants repentance onto salvation freedom.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all his work.
Heath Hollensbe:Do you And that as you're just saying that, uh, one of the things I was thinking of is back to episode 1 36, which is.
Heath Hollensbe:Why we need to get to know the Holy Spirit.
Heath Hollensbe:This is a good one just to go, if we do this in our flesh, we can accuse wrongly, we can hurt, we have to be walking with the spirit.
Heath Hollensbe:We don't
Caesar Kalinowski:see our own part of it clearly, like.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Start there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good work.
Heath Hollensbe:So
Caesar Kalinowski:136 if you want
Heath Hollensbe:to learn more about the spirit.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, again, if you want the Big Three takeaways from this week, we will get them to you for free and all you got to do is go to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash big three, you'll get those right away.
Heath Hollensbe:If you haven't joined the Facebook group, as Caesar said, you get to.
Heath Hollensbe:Go to Facebook, up in the search bar, type in Everyday Disciple Podcast.
Heath Hollensbe:We'll approve you to the group.
Heath Hollensbe:And again, it's not just a place to come and talk about how great the show is.
Heath Hollensbe:If you've got questions or disagreements or pushback, we encourage that sort of conversation.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, by the
Caesar Kalinowski:way, too, if you've not gone over to iTunes and subscribed yet, would you do that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause that way, you know, you get a notification of the new episodes and you won't miss it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that blesses us.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you'll leave a review.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, Honest Review, give as much stars and loving as you can.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not only might we read this on air for you, but it also blesses us because we love hearing back from you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So both of these are ways for us to hear back from you and other people to know, hey, this is valuable.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you found value in this and paid zero for it, which is the case every week, then that's how you can bless us and sort of repay and pay forward the blessing is go.
Caesar Kalinowski:And subscribe and leave us a little review.
Caesar Kalinowski:Awesome.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show, and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.