The Fearless Truth About Spiritual Conversations
Most of us have been taught that sharing our faith means finding the right moment to slip in a little “Jesus talk.” We’ve got techniques, bridge illustrations, transition phrases. But honestly? They feel like a sales pitch. And if it feels like a sales pitch to you, imagine how it feels to the person on the other end.
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar breaks down why the old techniques rarely work — and offers a completely different framework for transitioning to spiritual conversations that are actually Good News. If you’ve ever felt awkward, fearful, or fake when trying to bring up Jesus, this one is going to change how you see the whole conversation.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- Why we fear spiritual conversations — and the lies behind the most common excuses
- How past “techniques” rarely benefit anyone — and why they feel like a sales pitch
- Why the gospel is NOT just a set of facts about sin, hell, and the afterlife
- Practical ways to transition to spiritual conversations that are genuinely Good News
From this episode:
“If our understanding of the gospel and spiritual things is focused primarily on some yet-to-be-seen afterlife, it will probably always seem weird or irrelevant to talk about it.”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
Thanks so much for joining us again this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Join us on Facebook and take part in the discussion!
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it using the social media buttons you see at the top of this page or right below.
Also, please leave an honest review for The Everyday Disciple Podcast on iTunes. Ratings and reviews are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! They do matter in the rankings of the show, and we read each and every one of them.
Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching and Apprenticeship in Missional Living w/ Caesar and his wife, Tina
Resources for missional living and group training – Missio Publishing
Transcript
Here's, here's the thing behind the thing.
Speaker:As we always talk about, if you think the goal is to quote, get people saved or get them out of hell, or get them to church, then you're gonna probably need to figure out a way to have corny, weird conversations like that.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:If you believe the goal.
Speaker:Of our, of what the mission of the church is to make disciples who make disciples, helping people move from unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Speaker:Then you see every conversation is an opportunity to do that.
Speaker:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Speaker:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Speaker:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Speaker:And now here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Speaker:Good afternoon, my friend.
Speaker:Good afternoon.
Speaker:What's happening, ma'am?
Speaker:I'm doing great.
Speaker:Let me ask you something outta the box here.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Do you consider yourself a people person?
Speaker:Oh yeah, I would, I would say so.
Speaker:Do you think being a people person is dependent on being introverted or extroverted, or does that have nothing to do with it?
Speaker:I mean.
Speaker:I would think my, it's funny 'cause my wife always says like, you're such a people person, Uhhuh and the neighbors across the street, like, you're such a people person.
Speaker:They, they never say that about my wife, but she's massive introvert and I'm kind of the always outgoing.
Speaker:Gotcha.
Speaker:I think she cares about people just doesn't show it as much as I do.
Speaker:I mean, if you walk by my house,
Speaker:I would say you are a people person.
Speaker:Huh?
Speaker:I would say you are.
Speaker:I think I am too.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:for sure.
Speaker:Generally, I had, recently, I had a neighbor of mine.
Speaker:I was, I was talking about something and I said, oh, oh, this is funny that somebody rang my doorbell a couple days ago.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And, uh, by the time I got from my office to the front door, which is what, three feet?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Maybe, you know, two feet.
Speaker:Um, I looked out, there's nobody around, and I kinda even walked out on the porch and I looked up and down the street and I couldn't see anything.
Speaker:I was like, oh, what the heck.
Speaker:Laying there though is like a, like a shopping, plastic shopping bag.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's tied in a knot and I bring in the house, I'm like, oh, like, is that like dog poo?
Speaker:Or something's being funny?
Speaker:Yeah, sure.
Speaker:And they threw it up on my porch or whatever.
Speaker:I open it up and in it there's, there's, there's like two $10 and, and a $5 bill.
Speaker:But they're like micro, they're small.
Speaker:They're from like a game.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And some coins, plastic coins.
Speaker:And then there's a handwritten note clearly scribbled in pink marker by like maybe a 5-year-old.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it says, ha ha ha.
Speaker:Have fun with your real money.
Speaker:And being, um, and being trolled, which is not what being trolled means.
Speaker:It is just funny.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That is funny.
Speaker:It is just being funny and I was telling my neighbor about it.
Speaker:And I said I, I'm actually, I found it hilarious and I found it awesome that it's the second time we've gotten notes from kids like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Kids in the neighborhood, they just think, think we're funny.
Speaker:It's funny.
Speaker:He goes, oh, people in the neighborhood love you guys.
Speaker:They just,
Speaker:oh, that's cool man.
Speaker:You guys have a great, you know, so that was good to hear it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:It was awesome to hear it.
Speaker:That's what
Speaker:you want.
Speaker:And we got trolled, so that's not what that means.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Who else has a great reputation Canada?
Speaker:Canada, speaking of Canada, we have a wonderful review from White zero 19.
Speaker:I don't know what part of Canada, but White zero 19 says, I love this podcast.
Speaker:Easy to understand.
Speaker:And a great motivator for what it means to live as disciples of Jesus.
Speaker:Aw.
Speaker:Well thanks.
Speaker:White zero.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm wondering if that's a snow reference.
Speaker:Air
Speaker:five internet.
Speaker:Air five to you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Have fun in Canada.
Speaker:Hey, man.
Speaker:Today we're talking about how to, uh, how to move everyday discussions in the normalness of life and into spiritual conversations.
Speaker:And this topic's been asked by many of our listeners, but, uh, my buddy Tony actually specifically brought this to our attention the other day.
Speaker:He asked us to do a show on how to, how to make this move just kind of more natural.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like it's a good topic, I think for us to dive into.
Speaker:People get all stuck on it.
Speaker:They get all freaked out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, how do I, I don't know.
Speaker:I, I never, and here's the truth, most people don't.
Speaker:Don't really have spiritual discussions.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Like the, I think the enemy has completely duped most of the capital C church in the world to think nobody wants to talk about that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Not true.
Speaker:I have found true the exact opposite to be true.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Everywhere.
Speaker:Now that was kind of what was a little bit behind my, are you a people person question that just went in, you know?
Speaker:Um, it's 'cause some people think, oh, it has everything to do with that.
Speaker:It's like, no, I have found universally.
Speaker:And there again, having worked in dozens of countries in I don't know how many cities.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:People are very actually open and spiritual discussions, but we're so freaked out by it and, and I, and people say, well, yeah, but I tried this.
Speaker:And it's like, no, you tried hammering somebody with a pre-canned presentation about some historical facts about a guy who died on a cross and why if they don't get in line, they're gonna burn in hell.
Speaker:And they sniffed it out and they're not interested.
Speaker:And
Speaker:you felt
Speaker:rejected.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so you go, they're not interested in spiritual things.
Speaker:It's like, ah.
Speaker:I think those are two different things.
Speaker:Not that
Speaker:crap.
Speaker:No one's looking gonna be ambushed by the non gospel gospel.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so I, I think, I think that it is a key topic to discuss because we don't know how to do it.
Speaker:How do you normally.
Speaker:In a conversation actually get to, and I, I'm gonna say spiritual conversations, but some people are say, well, how do you get to presenting the gospel?
Speaker:Or how do you get to a point of decision with someone?
Speaker:Those are all points on a continuum, by the way.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Getting to a spiritual conversation piece of cake, that's just happening, I think, you know, 'cause we're spiritual beings.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:All things are spiritual.
Speaker:They really are.
Speaker:If you understand how God's made the world, made us, um, we're not.
Speaker:We're not fleshly beings with a spirit.
Speaker:We're spiritual beings that have been given a body.
Speaker:So getting to spiritual discussions is very, very normative now, where we take those spiritual dis those conversations and how other people perceive them, well that's, that's another part of, that's maybe a
Speaker:little bit different now.
Speaker:That's a different, and we'll go there too.
Speaker:Yeah, we'll go there too.
Speaker:So
Speaker:one of the things that I've heard, uh, and I've actually used myself, if I'm being honest, is every excuse under the sun from people to keep from moving.
Speaker:Normal lifestyle relationships, like you're talking about into the spiritual conversations like, ah, man, I just missed that opportunity or.
Speaker:You know, I, I, we were having a good conversation.
Speaker:It just, it just didn't real, it didn't fit right.
Speaker:It didn't feel right to me.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:yeah, we were talking about, you know, the Seahawks and missing that touchdown, and I just, man, I just thought I should probably talk, I should invite that dude to church right now.
Speaker:The ultimate touchdown was, was the cross, you know, or something like that.
Speaker:Well, that's, see, that's what we've been taught though.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We've been taught these weird, hokey sort of transitions.
Speaker:I've shared this story before.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:From someone I love.
Speaker:And I love and respect like crazy, but when I was a young man, I'm sure this, this before, uh, I was being taught how to witness, okay, okay.
Speaker:How to evangelize.
Speaker:And I was taken to a mall, to a shoe store by my mentor, me and another young guy, a couple, maybe a couple of us.
Speaker:And he said to this teenager, like, he picks up a shoe and says, this teenager's like, this is a good shoe.
Speaker:And the kid's like, you know, I'll pimple face, little high school kid.
Speaker:He's like, yeah, I guess so.
Speaker:So a lot of 'em, he's like, does it have a good soul on it?
Speaker:And the guy's like, nah, I, I guess so.
Speaker:It's a good brand.
Speaker:He's like, do you think that soul will last forever?
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:I'm, we're starting to catch wind of this, you know, the kid doesn't know yet.
Speaker:We're kind of going, oh no.
Speaker:And he's like, you know, we have souls too, and they do last forever.
Speaker:You know, it's just like, that's not how you transition to a spiritual,
Speaker:that's a story that's laced with the gospel.
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:terrible.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that's, that's what we've been taught.
Speaker:And I can remember watching videos.
Speaker:From, uh, little Creek and, uh, places that, you know, are like way into evangelism legitimately.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it was like videos on whole courses of how, like, I'm on the treadmill and the guy's like, man, feeling the burn today.
Speaker:And you're like, you know what, you know, you know, we're all gonna burn some day.
Speaker:You know, it's like, what?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:It's like, and they had, they had like a hundred of those, you know, like, just like, and everybody's like, I'm never doing that.
Speaker:I am so not doing that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So just so everybody listening knows that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker:Okay, that's true.
Speaker:Like try to lose that canned, you know, part of that.
Speaker:Here's, here's the thing behind the thing.
Speaker:As we always talk about, if you think the goal.
Speaker:Is to quote, get people saved, or get them out of hell, or get them to church, then you're gonna probably need to figure out a way to have corny, weird conversations like that.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:If you believe the goal of our, of what the mission of the church is, to make disciples who make disciples, helping people move from unbelief to belief in every area of life, then you see every conversation is an opportunity to do that.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Naturally.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you don't have to sort of shoehorn in or wedge in some sort of awkward transition about burning in hell.
Speaker:Now might those conversations need to come up at some point in the continuum with people?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But like when you're walking at the park, when you're looking at shoes, at a shoe store, yeah.
Speaker:At the
Speaker:place,
Speaker:right.
Speaker:When you're at the gym on the treadmill, is that probably gonna No.
Speaker:Have I had things like that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I've been sitting in.
Speaker:Planes next to somebody and they're like, oh, what are you doing?
Speaker:Like, oh, you know, I got a question for you.
Speaker:And boom, they go deep and you go like, I'm gonna lay out the whole plan of salvation form.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I've God's whole eternal plan and how they can get on board with it.
Speaker:I'm gonna, 'cause now's the time.
Speaker:That's really not what this is about either.
Speaker:We're talking about how do you go, you know, in normal relationships with people believers or not yet believers by the way.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And how do you start to.
Speaker:Ha have a spiritual conversation or address a, an issue that is a spiritual issue or there's sin involved.
Speaker:How do, how do you begin to do that?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:That's, that's, that's what I'm kind of interested in talking about, I think today.
Speaker:So it sounds like what you're saying is, the thing behind the thing here is that we don't really even understand what the goal of, of spiritual conversation.
Speaker:Why would I wanna even have one?
Speaker:Yeah, you're supposed to, you gotta get people to church, you gotta get 'em saved.
Speaker:They're all gonna burn.
Speaker:You know, it's
Speaker:not an
Speaker:agenda.
Speaker:All guilty, weird stuff.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And I think that.
Speaker:Even if we start to get to the point of going, no, no, no.
Speaker:I know that's not the goal, or that's way down the line.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:People don't know how, they've only heard a gospel that's like a set of facts about sin and hell and our afterlife, and they, they really just don't have, we've used the term before.
Speaker:They don't have a great gospel fluency.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:In words, the ability to speak, you know, and experience the good news into everything.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:In every area of life.
Speaker:You know, just like, Hey, it's in a beautiful, it's amazing day.
Speaker:Is, is there a gospel connected to that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:God's a creator of the universe and he's created good things for us to love and enjoy.
Speaker:Can we talk about that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's a way to talk about that.
Speaker:That'd be Sure then is now I can remember back.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:When that was me too.
Speaker:I just, I didn't, I didn't understand the goal.
Speaker:I, I was taught like, you, you know, you gotta get everybody, you gotta give 'em to church.
Speaker:That's the goal.
Speaker:You gotta 'em to church and the pastor is gonna preach to 'em.
Speaker:It's like, and so the only way to to, to have a conversation was like some weird trans, like how do I, how do I get into hell?
Speaker:How do I get into the state of prayer?
Speaker:How do I, you know?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And so, like, I think back to when I was a young Christian and I was a young parents that kind of, sort of coincided, right?
Speaker:And we're trying to live out a biblical faith.
Speaker:You know, we're reading the book, Tina and I, um, and we are thinking like it's gotta.
Speaker:It's gotta be somehow, it's gotta move beyond just Sunday and going to church and getting people to church.
Speaker:And I was looking at my kids starting to, you know, they're, they're now growing up a little bit in age and I, I wanted to raise them with a faith that, that it was every day.
Speaker:It was, it wasn't just like, we go to church and then they kinda live like everybody else.
Speaker:Yeah, right.
Speaker:Pretty much.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um, you know, but like throwing a little weekly church service now and then maybe a, maybe a mission trip on in the summers or something like that.
Speaker:And I, and I, I did, I wanted to be able to speak to others and transition, uh, into.
Speaker:The gospel and, and, but into normal life.
Speaker:Not just like, oh, we could talk about the gospel.
Speaker:I guess I got one way to go.
Speaker:Let's talk about hell, you know, wherever.
Speaker:And I wanted my, I wanted my kids and my wife and my close friends at church and all that, and, and, and even lost names.
Speaker:I want 'em to understand that the Gospel was about today, about everyday life.
Speaker:So, but here's the problem.
Speaker:Everybody I knew was pretty much living a Sunday, the Sunday experience of their Christianity.
Speaker:I didn't know anybody who like didn't.
Speaker:Huh?
Speaker:And I didn't know that many people whose focus was.
Speaker:On the Kingdom is now
Speaker:sure
Speaker:it was all afterlife focused and so I really wasn't able to speak to others and, and transition into conversation and help my loved ones experience the good news in everyday life.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Much less shown that Jesus was real and relevant.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:It was, he was this dude who lived a long time ago and he died.
Speaker:And don't you feel horrible about that and all that?
Speaker:So anyway, now to make things worse, I started feeling horrible and a lot of pressure to be evangelizing my friends because that's what I was taught, right?
Speaker:And I gotta get him to church.
Speaker:And it even got worse when I became a pastor.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Can you imagine?
Speaker:Like, oh, you have to be, you get that.
Speaker:Like if you're a pastor and you're not inviting everybody to church, if you're not taking every opportunity like at the checkout window, you know, do you want fries with that?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:But do you want salvation with that?
Speaker:You know, like you have to take every, you know, and I just, I just felt so much pressure and.
Speaker:And even when I tried to share my faith or transition things to spiritual conversations, they were always that canned, sort of like turn the corner, get 'em to say the prayer kind of thing.
Speaker:I was often rejected by it.
Speaker:People said, that doesn't sound like good news to me, or That's your truth, or whatever.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And, and, and Tina and the kids were slowly kind of coming under the weight of trying to measure up to some sort of unspoken, but, you know, real standard of, you know, who are you talking to about Jesus?
Speaker:How often are you sharing your faith?
Speaker:Are you handing out those tracks we gave you, you getting everybody to church?
Speaker:And I, I, I, but I'm reading the book, I'm reading the Bible, and I'm feeling like we must be missing something here.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:we gotta be missing something here.
Speaker:So it had to be bigger than that.
Speaker:It had to be bigger than that.
Speaker:And, and that's when, you know, and I've, I've talked about it briefly.
Speaker:We started realizing there was these shifts in focus.
Speaker:We had to start going, wait a minute, is my focus in a spiritual conversation?
Speaker:Is it evangelism or is it discipleship?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just for instance, one thing people say, well, it's evangelism.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Well, is it discipleship?
Speaker:You know, what did Jesus do first?
Speaker:What, what did Jesus focus on?
Speaker:He, he saw them and said, come and follow me.
Speaker:Do life with me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He didn't say Sit down.
Speaker:Let me explain a bunch of stuff.
Speaker:Once you agree, I'm gonna lead you in a little We Lot of teachings.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:A lot of teaching.
Speaker:Once you agree, I'm gonna lead you in a prayer, and then we're gonna get into some discipleship.
Speaker:See, he didn't.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Oh, so then that was a shift in our focus we made, wait a minute, maybe you Disciple people to faith.
Speaker:Maybe you just, when we said discipleship, it's a process of moving from unbelief to belief.
Speaker:Maybe that's the goal.
Speaker:And maybe if you're helping 'em move from unbelief in the Gospel to belief in the gospel in every area of life, maybe that's evangelism.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So wait a minute.
Speaker:Maybe the way discipleship and evangelism fit together is different than I thought.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Now sudden everything becomes an opportunity to have a quote, spiritual discussion or evangelist discussion.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We've talked about that a lot at cigars and theology and stuff.
Speaker:Is.
Speaker:It's just looking for the normalcy of life.
Speaker:Like if God is in control and he's good, like it's so easy to point those situations out rather than having to tie everything to the agenda of, I mean, you don't need to go from brand new relationship to death on the cross in 30 seconds.
Speaker:No, I thought, I thought the Christian life was primarily about sin management and behavioral modification.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I really did.
Speaker:It wasn't, and you know what?
Speaker:And, and live in that way.
Speaker:It wasn't drawing me closer to God.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:it wasn't, in fact, it was starting to cause doubts about like, what is this anxiety?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Where's this going?
Speaker:Like, what are my kids gonna think God's about in church and I gonna love it?
Speaker:Are they not gonna love God anymore when they grow up?
Speaker:What does he really want from us?
Speaker:Is he really?
Speaker:Did Jesus die just so we can fill up a another worship service down the road?
Speaker:Do you know?
Speaker:Which meant it was getting harder and harder to wanna invite my friends into the life.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Because I was like, I don't, I wasn't, when I say, you know, causing doubts, I'm like, is God real?
Speaker:No, it wasn't like that.
Speaker:It was like, what's he want?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, what does he want from us?
Speaker:You know, what's he after?
Speaker:And so, you know, and, and up until that point in my life, I hadn't been mentored really very well.
Speaker:I hadn't been coached by anybody.
Speaker:I didn't have all this stuff.
Speaker:But once these, these shifts started happening, we're like, wait a minute, maybe what Jesus did to deci, you know, discipled people to an understanding of faith.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And what is true of his father.
Speaker:What the kingdom of God's really like and all about is how they came to understand what he did on the cross.
Speaker:Oh wait, it changes things.
Speaker:Yeah, it changed a lot of things.
Speaker:And so that was big.
Speaker:And that's when a bunch of us started going, oh, wait a minute, let's work this out.
Speaker:And that's when this whole idea of gospel fluency was like, how do we speak?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:You know, can we take a conversation, can any conversation, you know, like some pain you're experiencing or some something in your life that's causing you, like, you know, jacked up, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or like could, is there good news for that too?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And there really is.
Speaker:There really, really is.
Speaker:So what would you say, like, would be some really helpful tips that you would share from maybe even your own experience that might help us do a better job of, of sharing the good news of the gospel while also having normal relationships where?
Speaker:Trust is being built over time.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, let's take that in reverse order.
Speaker:First off, try to have relationship with people.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I remember one time a guy, uh, one of the Bullhorn guys.
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:A
Speaker:guy down Saturday Market in, in, uh, Portland.
Speaker:Oh, do I?
Speaker:They're on the box and they're, you know, they're in the, on the bullhorn.
Speaker:They're just screaming.
Speaker:Repent.
Speaker:Seriously.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And like, you know, wrath.
Speaker:Wrath, you know.
Speaker:And they're going nuts.
Speaker:And I remember going up to the guy and going like, Hey, are you talking about the gospel?
Speaker:And he goes, yes, I am.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And I said, so the gospel's good news, right?
Speaker:And I go, yeah.
Speaker:He goes, yeah.
Speaker:And I go like, I'm not hearing any good news.
Speaker:Come on outta that bullhorn.
Speaker:It's like, gimme some good news.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And he's like, wait a minute.
Speaker:You're one of those people that thinks you have to have a relationship, be a friend with someone,
Speaker:uh,
Speaker:don't you?
Speaker:I'm like, uh, yeah.
Speaker:Like, Jesus, you know?
Speaker:Kinda
Speaker:helpful.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Kinda helpful.
Speaker:And so I wanna say is first off, um, if, if, if you don't.
Speaker:If you don't have enough love of God and enough of love for the person that's in front of you to build relationship,
Speaker:yep,
Speaker:build trust.
Speaker:I don't know that you are probably the person to try to move into spiritual discussions with them.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Like, God's not sitting up in heaven going, you know, Heath, uh, if you really loved me, you'd have told him about me and you'd have got him to church this Sunday.
Speaker:It's like, well, I don't like that guy.
Speaker:Huh.
Speaker:And really, I only would check the box so that my pastor would see it or my, you know, Missional Community leader would see it or you'd feel better about me.
Speaker:God, God's like.
Speaker:Actually, the truth is I couldn't feel any better about you.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I love you completely 'cause of my son and what he's already done, and I, I just look at you and I see him and I, I love you perfectly.
Speaker:And so unless you're willing to have a relationship with people and you have that kinda love with 'em, I'd say maybe you're not ready to have spiritual discussions with 'em or try to transition to anything.
Speaker:That's first.
Speaker:Now, what are some tips.
Speaker:We talk about the thing behind the thing a lot and the four questions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Remember we talked about the four questions in our podcast on, uh, cigar and theology.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like what's our format for that?
Speaker:And so we talked about the four questions that allow us to see the thing behind the thing in every issue or topic.
Speaker:First question is who is God and what's he like?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:In light of that, so right away, if I'm in a normal conversation about anything and someone generally, I, I, here's a tip, look for what people are complaining about.
Speaker:Or stoked about, just excited about, but someone's complaining about saying, oh, my boss man, my freaking boss, you know, he this and that, and this and that, and there's no way I'm ever gonna get, you know, a promotion with this guy at the, you know, it's like, okay, so what do we know to be true about God?
Speaker:In light of that?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Well, God's a provider.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:God created you.
Speaker:He created your boss.
Speaker:He see, see, like now, right now I'm thinking something different.
Speaker:Instead of going like, how do I transition from, the guy hates his job to like, I gotta come to church on Sunday and say this prayer.
Speaker:You know, it's like, but, but wait a minute.
Speaker:What's true about God in light of.
Speaker:Your boss and work and how you have the ability to work and where true provision comes from.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Second question.
Speaker:What's true about God?
Speaker:What's he done that's proved that God's a provider?
Speaker:God, we see his provision from Genesis all the way up through the whole, you know?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:The whole book is just full of God looking out for his people, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:For people, period.
Speaker:All the time.
Speaker:Third question, what's true of us then?
Speaker:Oh, well, we're sons and daughters of a father, God who owns it all.
Speaker:And can completely meet our needs.
Speaker:And he actually loves us regardless of our performance.
Speaker:Not like that boss, you know?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Even when you do your best, he still is not happy, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:And so right away I'm starting to look at like, okay, the types of questions I'd ask with that guy complaining are very, very different.
Speaker:Now, I might not say to an nonbeliever, so what do we know to be true about God in light of, you know, your boss being a jerk?
Speaker:But I might say like, why does your boss not understanding or valuing your work?
Speaker:Why does it bug you so much?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Well.
Speaker:'cause if I'm ever gonna get a raise or a promotion outta this, you know, which is never gonna happen with this beep guy.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:That's never gonna happen.
Speaker:So are, let me ask you, are you finding your value and like self-worth based on what this guy thinks of you?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:See where it starts to change?
Speaker:It is, yeah.
Speaker:Now is that a spiritual discussion we're starting to have?
Speaker:Yeah, it sure is.
Speaker:Uh, I don't know.
Speaker:I mean, I guess I do, I mean, I don't really care what this guy thinks.
Speaker:He's a, you know, jazz, uh, jack wagon.
Speaker:You know, I don't care what he thinks.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:Problem solved.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, no, because what he thinks has everything to do with what, you know, if I'm gonna make, you know, my living or make a get a raise or whatever.
Speaker:Oh, so you don't like the fact that this guy holds your income in his control?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:What if in fact he doesn't?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What if, you know, you know, brother, I've got, you know, I'm a believer.
Speaker:I, I, I, I'm Christian and I believe that God created me and you and he's our ultimate kind of provider for everything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What if he's actually way bigger than all that and he even can take care of us even with jerky bosses.
Speaker:That'd be awesome.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:See, see.
Speaker:And then what guided those thought.
Speaker:Thoughts and kind of questions that I'd ask was thinking through, well, what's God like?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What's true of him?
Speaker:What's he done to prove it?
Speaker:What's true of this guy, even if he doesn't know it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How would he get to live if he believed it?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:He'd get to live free regardless of the boss.
Speaker:Quit hating the boss changes, you know, you know, maybe even if he changed his job.
Speaker:He is like, right.
Speaker:And so that's that.
Speaker:You gotta start looking what's, what's the thing behind the thing?
Speaker:So look for what people are complaining about or what they're stoked about.
Speaker:And it kinda works the same way.
Speaker:And I think the pressure's off too.
Speaker:One of the things that Hug Halter talks about is kind of like the five-year plan, and we've discussed this a little bit.
Speaker:Like it doesn't, if you're trying to go to zero to the cross in 30 seconds.
Speaker:Well, you
Speaker:might give
Speaker:the cross, but they might not go.
Speaker:I don't believe any of that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Three poles of it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's like this takes us five years
Speaker:fullness to those who are perishing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, um, back in episode 5 38, in which if you haven't listened to, it's about the introvert extrovert conversation.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:We talked about introverts.
Speaker:That's, that's a popular episode.
Speaker:People that
Speaker:was
Speaker:flip out on that.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:they love
Speaker:it.
Speaker:I've been hiding behind my introversion for years, and you just toppled it over.
Speaker:You just kicked that idol.
Speaker:You're welcome.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you think that excuses, or, I would say they're excuses because I'm not an interview, but do you think like comments like, eh, well I'm not a people person, or I'm not the massive introvert that you are.
Speaker:Do you think those people are excluded from Jesus's command to make disciples or,
Speaker:well, let me think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or do you think that it's gonna look a bit different for, for people that are Yeah.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:When it comes to discipleship,
Speaker:there you go.
Speaker:Well, so we've talked about it before.
Speaker:Introversion and extroversion has to do with how we recharge, not how we love people.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or a kind of types of conversation we'll have now, often because of a false understanding of introversion and, uh, cultural.
Speaker:Acceptance to kind of hide behind it is like, yeah, I'm an introvert, so that's why I don't talk to anybody and I'm not gonna talk, you know, I go to parties.
Speaker:I don't wanna be in a Missional Community.
Speaker:I just, you know, it's me.
Speaker:It's me and God and the word, you know, that's just all that, you know.
Speaker:And, uh, you know, I'll bring a guy to church, you know, let the pastor tell him about it, you know, but that's,
Speaker:I'm not doing it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not doing it.
Speaker:Well, we've made that acceptable.
Speaker:It's not, there's nothing, you never see it in scripture where God, you know, Jesus says, go and make disciples unless you're not a people person.
Speaker:Extroverts.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I don't, you know, so, so yeah, I think, but if you were, if you were raised and allowed to kind of hide behind that false, no.
Speaker:If you're an introvert, then just make sure you recharge your battery well before you go to a party.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, get some alone time.
Speaker:Get, get charged up.
Speaker:Just, just like on the opposite side, if you're an extrovert, maybe you need to get some words out before you go to a party, so you're not just burning everybody's ear off and everybody's like, this guy, you know, this guy, it's all about him, me, monster, you know?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, um, if you were.
Speaker:If you are used to hiding behind that introversion, then you might feel like, well, I, because I was an introvert, I don't talk to people.
Speaker:Um, I have a lot of fear of man, I got a lot of love of self, and so I really don't have the skills.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I wanna say that you, you're not excused from it, but God also knows that and he loves you, and so he wants you to understand what's the truth about him and what he's done and what now that speaks how that speaks into your identity and others.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And I think God wants us all.
Speaker:To be able to, as spiritual beings, to be able to speak about the good news in absolutely every area of life.
Speaker:I really think he does.
Speaker:And there again, how you begin to transition that.
Speaker:Start with relationship.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Start by being a good listener.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Listen.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:listen.
Speaker:For where people are living in unbelief of what's true about God and what's true of them.
Speaker:I mean, I, you can, once you start doing this heath, and you know this already, you can't almost not hear where a person's like, they're just their, their identities.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Messed up.
Speaker:You just, you know,
Speaker:it's so clear.
Speaker:It's so, it's
Speaker:so fast too.
Speaker:Like even
Speaker:on, if you watch the news and you go like, I know exactly what's going on there.
Speaker:I know what the unbelief is.
Speaker:I know what the thing behind the thing is.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So how would I go to an spiritual conversation?
Speaker:It wouldn't be some inadvertent historical facts about a guy who died on a cross.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It would be speaking good news and truth to the un, belief into the specific thing behind the thing.
Speaker:Why is that guy losing his mind over that?
Speaker:Why is she going off the rails on it?
Speaker:From unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:Hey, let's jump onto the big three for this week.
Speaker:Uh, and those big three takeaways are the three kind of things.
Speaker:If you could get nothing else outta this episode that we'd want you to walk away with right now, you get those for free by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three.
Speaker:Caesar, what would you say the big three are for this week?
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:I'd say first.
Speaker:That you gotta believe the gospel is good news for today.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That, that whole shift of like, uh, it's good news about your afterlife.
Speaker:Well, it is, but let's speak to it.
Speaker:If you wanna know how to have those kind of conversations, have it today.
Speaker:If our understanding of the gospel and spiritual things is focused primarily on the afterlife, I think it's gonna always seem a little bit weird to talk about it with people right outta the box.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We need to learn how to speak.
Speaker:Believe the gospel is good news to ourself first for today and for every issue we face and every problem, and every hurt, and every wound that we have, and every hope we have and dream we have, it's all the gospel speaks into all of it.
Speaker:We gotta believe that the gospel is good news for today.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Gotta make that shift.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:Number two.
Speaker:Number two, Jesus' command was to make disciples.
Speaker:It was never to get them to come to your church or say a special prayer.
Speaker:Really
Speaker:right?
Speaker:That, that you gotta, you gotta make that shift, that discipleships the goal.
Speaker:So now I'm thinking about what kind of spiritual conversation would I have with someone like you just said a minute ago, well, I wanna help move from unbelief to belief around God's kids.
Speaker:'cause this person thinks, okay, most Christians are a-holes, but not you.
Speaker:Man, I like you, but I don't wanna go to church.
Speaker:'cause a bunch of, they're all hypocrites or whatever.
Speaker:Okay, so how would I go about having a conversation help people, that person move from unbelief to belief.
Speaker:Around what's true of God's kids because we are supposed to be reflection of and glorify what God's like, what dad is like.
Speaker:Excuse me.
Speaker:So that's discipleship.
Speaker:So I think if you switch, if you switch, your goal in having a spiritual conversation isn't getting everybody saved, which we were never commanded to do and we never see that that was the goal of the disciples.
Speaker:And Jesus taught him that it was to make him.
Speaker:Disciples of his to walk in his ways.
Speaker:In every area of life, it changes what your conversations will be focused on.
Speaker:That's good, man.
Speaker:Alright, number three,
Speaker:third one.
Speaker:Um, you need to invest in, in relationship first and into invitation.
Speaker:People into your life a lot more than spiritual challenge.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We talk about invitation and challenge is how you move a conversation along or move a relationship from sort of normal everyday life stuff to, I'm actually starting to Disciple this person and they're starting to walk with God.
Speaker:It's, it's a toggling between invitation and challenge, and so you need to invest in relational invitation a whole lot more and upfront than spiritual challenge.
Speaker:So you don't meet somebody, you go like, oh, I noticed you and your boyfriend are living together.
Speaker:You're not married.
Speaker:They're like, well, let's talk about why that's sinful.
Speaker:I'm gonna send you straight to hell.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:It's like, sure, you did what?
Speaker:What relational invitation to your life and your own wounds and hurts and healings have you given before you went straight for that.
Speaker:So invest in invitation a whole lot more than spiritual challenge on the front end, and then you'll get there.
Speaker:And for some of those people that are still kind of wondering, we've talked about the last couple weeks.
Speaker:Do you have any spots left in your coaching?
Speaker:Coaching stuff?
Speaker:There are, there are a few slots.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But they, there's not many to begin with and they fill up really, really fast.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:If someone does want, you know, they, they're looking to start a Missional Community or they want to grow in their gospel fluency, they're like, oh, we're parents.
Speaker:And, you know, we take our kids to church, but there's not a lot of family devotions.
Speaker:There's not a lot of family on mission going on, and we wanna be coach.
Speaker:It's the most important thing.
Speaker:And like I've shared before, all the big breakthroughs in my life were connected to getting mentors and coaching in my life.
Speaker:So my wife and I, we try to provide that and we do couples coaching, we do group coaching and all that.
Speaker:So if a person wants to, to have us coach them, yeah, we're starting up here, uh, like in a couple, like a week or two now.
Speaker:Yeah, it's starting like right away.
Speaker:They'd have to see if there's any slots.
Speaker:So if you want more information for that, you can go to everyday Disciple dot com slash coaching.
Speaker:See if there's some spots left.
Speaker:See if it fits with, with what you're doing.
Speaker:Yeah, you go to the show notes too.
Speaker:You know, if you go to the show notes for this episode, I'll make sure there's a link for that.
Speaker:In there as well.
Speaker:If you just couldn't write that down, just go to our site.
Speaker:Go to that this episode.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:which is
Speaker:episode 180 3.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And I'll make sure there's links there.
Speaker:And that's where we'll give you the big three takeaways.
Speaker:Again, you get those for free by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three.
Speaker:Thanks man.
Speaker:I, I love coaching and I love the depth of relationship I get to build with people over the course.
Speaker:You're good at it course of a bunch of months of coaching, you know?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And it's pretty life changing and you know, it sounds maybe a bit cliche, but like I, part of why I coach is 'cause I learn so much, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As you, everybody's got all their different life situations and together you're grappling with it.
Speaker:But we're bringing our experience.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To bear here.
Speaker:And so, yeah.
Speaker:Hey, and, and if you want to, to jump into that, maybe get your feet in the water.
Speaker:The best way to do that is by joining our Facebook group.
Speaker:To get there, just go up to Facebook in the search bar up top, type in Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar and I will preview you to the group, and then you can jump in with some of the conversations.
Speaker:And you and I are on there constantly talking back and forth, hearing people's thoughts, ask questions.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:It's getting richer and richer.
Speaker:Yeah, it is.
Speaker:Okay, so next week we're gonna, uh.
Speaker:We're gonna ask the question if Jesus was a liar or not, based off sowing and reaping.
Speaker:It was, was Jesus a liar?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I threw that on the Facebook group.
Speaker:I said like, Hey, so what do you think about reaping and sowing?
Speaker:Who likes to reap?
Speaker:Who likes to sow?
Speaker:You know, and all that.
Speaker:And man, it lit up.
Speaker:Yeah, real fast.
Speaker:So we're gonna talk about reaping and sowing and evangelism and how it fits into discipleship.
Speaker:I think it's gonna flip people's world upside down a little bit.
Speaker:Yeah, I think so
Speaker:too.
Speaker:It's what Jesus talked about.
Speaker:It was awesome.
Speaker:That's next Monday.
Speaker:Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com and remember, you really can live with a spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.