Jesus Didn’t Argue—Why Should We?
One of the biggest reasons Christians hesitate to talk about their faith is the fear of sounding weird or being hit with tough questions they can’t answer. Others feel like they have to “win” people over, and if they don’t, they’ve somehow failed.
This week on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, we’ll unpack why treating evangelism like a spiritual tug-of-war isn’t the way to go. In fact, apologetics often makes for poor evangelism—no one has ever been “argued” into the Kingdom!
Apologetics is valuable for defending our faith within Christian communities, but it’s not the best tool for engaging those outside the Church. And when we do discuss differences—especially with fellow believers—we’re called to do so with gentleness and respect. Before jumping into any debate, let’s make sure our hearts are in the right place.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- A clear understanding of apologetics and the true purpose of evangelism
- Two distinct approaches to starting faith conversations
- The real value of apologetics within Christian communities
- Why Jesus didn’t rely on tricks, tactics, or arguments to reveal his Father
From this episode:
“While apologetic and evangelistic methods are important and may at times be helpful, the Bible does not attribute the success of the gospel to human rhetoric or strategy. It is the Gospel that has the power to set people free and restore relationships–not our methods or perfectly crafted arguments!”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living.
Resources for Disciple-making and Missional Living
In light of today’s topics, you might find these posts and videos helpful:
Transcript
I've noticed that one of the things that often put people off of talking about Christianity or the gospel to their friends is the fear of sounding like a freak or being asked hard questions that they can't answer.
Caesar Kalinowski:People dread it, not being able to give, you know, some perfect answer or an adequate answer to the questions in a way that'll really sound like good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:So they usually just Don't.
Caesar Kalinowski:People ask him like, well, doesn't the Bible contradict itself?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or is the Bible meant to be read literally?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or what about other religions?
Caesar Kalinowski:Everyone else can't be totally wrong.
Caesar Kalinowski:Isn't Christianity racist and sexist and homophobic?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or here's the big one.
Caesar Kalinowski:If God's so good, why are so many bad things happening in the world?
Caesar Kalinowski:Responding to questions like these is what we commonly call apologetics.
Caesar Kalinowski:But focusing our evangelism on winning a spiritual tug of war is not a great approach to evangelism.
Caesar Kalinowski:Apologetics is for the defense of the faith within our faith communities and makes for poor evangelism outside the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And with each other, we always have to remember that it's with gentleness and respect that we're to discuss differences in our understanding and belief.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's be sure to get our hearts in that position before we jump into a debate.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, Discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Cesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey Heath, always good to be with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm excited for today.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, let's hit a real quick review that came in . Realtime84 says it's easy to engage the podcast with real life scenarios and fun hosts totally appreciate these weekly encouragements.
Heath Hollensbe:Awesome.
Heath Hollensbe:I think we're kind of fun.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's great.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, could I ask people to, would you, whatever you're listening on right now, would you, you know, if you're in the podcast app, would you hit subscribe to the podcast now?
Caesar Kalinowski:So that boom, on Mondays you get this right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you would like, just do us the biggest favor, hop on into iTunes.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think you probably do that on your phone as well and leave a review.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, you know, give us some stars, give an honest review, so that others can sort of follow your breadcrumbs and find the show as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Super helpful.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, really, I know, and you hear us, we say it a lot, but we don't get a whole lot of reviews in there, so, but we're growing in listenership, so would you just, I know, like, you know, it's, it's, it sucks, but just stop for, like, 60 seconds and hop into iTunes for us, that'd be, we'll know and, and we'll probably read it in your name or your little handily name on, on air, yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Make it sort of fun.
Heath Hollensbe:All right.
Heath Hollensbe:one of the things that we like to do ahead of time on shows like this is to really set some definitions so that we know what kind of playing field we're operating in when we talk about these words.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So maybe give us a couple definitions to apologetics and then to evangelism.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, we want to get on the same,
Caesar Kalinowski:foot here.
Caesar Kalinowski:today, let me just say up front, I'm not going to attempt to make a case for or against apologetics.
Caesar Kalinowski:Some people love it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'm not here to make the case against it or for even it exists.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's real.
Caesar Kalinowski:And when used in the correct context with the right motives, it's a very important and necessary tool for us within the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:What I want to offer today is more of an observation, with maybe a gentle warning.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, let's start off with a little, possibly familiar sounding, role play, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:You and I are going to do a little role play, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, here's what it's going to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, Heath's going to play Aaron, Aaron's not a Christian, but he's a gentle guy, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm going to play Mike.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm a Christian who thinks this is a perfect, uh, opening to witness to my pal.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so we'll see how this
Heath Hollensbe:conversation sounds.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay, Aaron, go ahead.
Heath Hollensbe:Man, I am so frustrated with politics and our government right now.
Heath Hollensbe:I wish there was a better way.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, I'm sure glad that God is in control, my, uh, you know, and powerful over everything, including our government.
Heath Hollensbe:I don't know if that's true.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, just look at our country right now, let alone our world.
Heath Hollensbe:Come on, Aaron.
Heath Hollensbe:The Bible teaches that da,
Caesar Kalinowski:da, da, da, da, da, da.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you look at the history of Israel and their leaders throughout history, and da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and here's some facts about the numbers 7
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I don't think that makes a ton of sense right now.
Heath Hollensbe:Try telling that to my sister who's trying to get health care.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Heath Hollensbe:well, come on, Aaron.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, the reason that so many people are hurting in our country right now is they reject the plain truth laid out in the Holy Scriptures.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I just showed you proof.
Caesar Kalinowski:I guess we might not see things quite the same way
Heath Hollensbe:on this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why don't we get together so I can show you a chart that I have that proves that governments throughout all of history are actually, uh, under, you know Uh, that's alright, Mike.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think I'll pass.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's a little caricature ish, but it probably sounds familiar.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I actually kind of pulled that from memory banks, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's really funny, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:As we were reading it, I
Heath Hollensbe:was like, Oh man, I've been here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So right now everybody would love it if I gave you the more loving and gospel fluent version of how this conversation would go, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But keep listening because we will.
Caesar Kalinowski:But it's going to come later, so you'll have to, so, but first let's dive into what apologetics actually is and how it was used in the Bible.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, I've noticed that one of the things that often, like I said, put people off about Christianity or, or speaking about the gospel to their friends is this fear of sounding like Mike, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or being asked hard questions like, I don't want to come off as hard or weird, or I don't want to be like a goofus either.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I don't want, I don't have all the right answers.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so people dread not being able to give adequate answers to.
Caesar Kalinowski:to questions that come their way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and they want it to sound like good news, but we're not that fluent in the gospel of the good news, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So questions like, doesn't the Bible contradict itself?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or is the Bible meant to be read literally?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, parts are, parts aren't.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which parts?
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:I shouldn't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:What about other religions?
Caesar Kalinowski:Come on, you're saying Christians are the only ones that have it right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Can't everybody else be wrong?
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, or people will say, well, How come Christianity has to be so racist and homophobic or sexist, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or hasn't science disproved most of the Bible in Christianity already?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or if God is so good, that's the biggie, uh, and powerful, why do so many bad things continue to happen?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm sure if you're listening today, you've got your own list of questions that you'd either want to ask God face to face, or you've been asked, or you fear being asked.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so responding to questions like these is commonly called apologetics.
Caesar Kalinowski:Apologetics comes, I'm going to have to go a little deep here, comes from the Greek word, Apologia.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm probably not pronouncing that right.
Caesar Kalinowski:My Greek's not the best.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, apologia, which means defense or answer.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's the word used in 1 Peter 3 15 where we find the most commonly used case made for Christians to be engaging in apologetics.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, this is what it says.
Caesar Kalinowski:It says, In your hearts, revere, which means to set apart or sanctify, Christ is Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:Revere Christ is Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:Always be prepared to give an answer.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's where that word apologia comes in.
Caesar Kalinowski:Always be prepared to give an answer To everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, the word apologia here, while not meaning apologetics per se in our modern technical sense, does indicate, I think, that Christians are to be prepared to explain their confession of Christ as Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:But that last part of the verse there is super key with gentleness and respect.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, it's, it's what it's saying here, like, be prepared to say why you have hope for your finances, for your kid's future, for the sickness you might be experiencing or the loss of job, but do it with gentleness and respect.
Caesar Kalinowski:It doesn't say, Get after every doctrine and prove your side of the case.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Do you talk about the hope you have with gentleness and respect?
Caesar Kalinowski:And let's be sure that our hearts are in that position before we jump into it now in the message Version of the Bible by Eugene Peterson his translation I think it really helps us find the tone and posture that we're trying to capture here He says that he's here's how he reads that that verse in first Peter 3 He says through thick and thin Keep your hearts at attention, in adoration before Christ, your Master.
Caesar Kalinowski:Be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you're living the way you are, and always with the utmost courtesy.
Heath Hollensbe:Wow.
Heath Hollensbe:Good to Eugene, man.
Heath Hollensbe:He does it every time.
Heath Hollensbe:That's awesome, right?
Heath Hollensbe:And it doesn't sound like the way you just said it.
Heath Hollensbe:This doesn't sound like a command to get into arguments to me, right?
Heath Hollensbe:No, it's the opposite.
Heath Hollensbe:Do we find the use of what we call apologetics anywhere in the New Testament even?
Heath Hollensbe:Well,
Caesar Kalinowski:not really.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, although perhaps none of the New Testament writings would fairly be classified as a formal app, you know, apologetic exposition.
Caesar Kalinowski:Some of them exhibit what I think it's fair to call Apologetic concerns.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, the New Testament writers in many many of the books they anticipate and answer Objections and they look to demonstrate the credibility of the claims and the testimony and the credentials of Christ Think about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all brand new much of Much of the New Testament was written to Jewish people, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So they had faith in God and they were waiting for Messiah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But now they're saying Messiah came and that was the guy you nailed to the cross and holy, you know, here, here's the truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so they're focused on his resurrection as the historical foundation upon which Christianity, which wasn't even called back then, is built.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and many of the New Testament writings are occupied with polemics against false teachings.
Caesar Kalinowski:In which the apologetic concern, quote unquote, is to defend the gospel against distortion from within the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Meaning, adding to it, like, oh, wait a minute, you have to be circumcised to be a Christian.
Caesar Kalinowski:Mmm, no.
Heath Hollensbe:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, or, you know, this is, this is what, Happened in the past and if you're not doing what happened in the past, then you're, you're missing it.
Caesar Kalinowski:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so most of the things that we would say were apologetic concerns, they were to defend the gospel against distortion from within the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think it's really important for us to note that most of what we see is the defense of the gospel against perversion from within the existing faith community.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Jewish or other, and this newly forming church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember, the Bible wasn't written down and distributed yet, like there weren't copies of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus never had a copy of the New Testament, none of the disciples or Jesus owned a copy of the Torah.
Caesar Kalinowski:There was only a handful of those, you know, the painstakingly hands transcribed.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so this apologetics was for the defense of the faith within the faith community, but it wasn't their form of evangelism.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's one example, and I don't have time to unpack it for us, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:That seems to differ a little bit.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's found in Paul's address to the Athenians in Acts 17 of the Areopagus and For more on that you can read your Bible and or you can check out my book bigger gospel Which I get into that a little bit more.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's a great book.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's still though.
Caesar Kalinowski:You see what he's doing and it's It's not our common use of like, let's figure out how to argue people into the kingdom.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's prove them wrong, or prove they're a liar, or prove they're, you know, going to hell, or something.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that'll somehow soften their hearts, and we'll argue them into the kingdom.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good luck.
Caesar Kalinowski:I just don't know of anybody who has ever Argued into the kingdom.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:You know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, I was, I would say that, yeah, people, uh, I mean, the fear of hell was dangled in front of me and, and it pushed me to make a decision to, like, follow Jesus, but it was never out of an identity standpoint.
Heath Hollensbe:It was like, yeah, you know.
Heath Hollensbe:People get
Caesar Kalinowski:into, like, how old is the earth and moon rocks, they were brought back and all this, and there was never a flood and they, you know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:They get into all kinds of stuff and like, no, we didn't come from apes and like, oh, but the, this, but sorry, but the Israelites are this way and you're not that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like, and we, but they'll, they'll get into this standing out in the street corner with people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's awful.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Caesar Kalinowski:Listen, you debate that within the faith family, but remember with gentleness and respect.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which it rarely seems to be done that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if it's not about your hope, it's, it's something else anyways.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:So what about the word?
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, evangelism or maybe the commonly held ideas of evangelism.
Heath Hollensbe:What does that look like?
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:So
Caesar Kalinowski:evangelism is a term we often use to refer to the preaching of the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:It comes from that same Greek word for gospel, uh, euangelion, I can't even, I, I'm so bad with Greek.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want to say even.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're doing better than me.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, it's, yeah, you can go online and hear it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it, it means literally gospeling.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, when we evangelize, we are gospelling, we're good newsing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, we're spreading the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so evangelism is one way in which we can fulfill Christ's call to be his witnesses.
Caesar Kalinowski:We see that in Acts 1.
Caesar Kalinowski:8. Okay, we're called to be his witnesses.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's there again.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a common verse.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why you witness.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why we go out and evangelize.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:In our Christian circles, witnessing involves making visible what is otherwise invisible.
Caesar Kalinowski:Think about it, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what it means to witness.
Caesar Kalinowski:I saw it, I want you to be able to see it.
Caesar Kalinowski:This witnessing deals with others now witnessing or seeing something or someone in a new or different light.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, let's, let's remember here, that God's eternal purpose is that the world would be filled with His glory.
Caesar Kalinowski:What He's really like, His essence, His beauty, His compassion.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that is why the church exists.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why we exist and therefore evangelize or gospel others must first and foremost show them what God is really Truly like notice we're witnessing to what he's like.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're showing others so they might witness what he's like Is he nerdy or picky or pushy or angry or mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:No, so that's not what witnessing is either and it's not some prescribed pre rehearsed speech There again, back to even like, if we want to bring these two terms together, uh, you know, from apologetics, from apologia, it's, it's, are you, are you explaining why you have hope in this area of life?
Caesar Kalinowski:Why the gospel, in other words, why Jesus life, death and resurrection has bearing on your marriage or, or your job change or man, that bad report from the doctor or whatever, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what's supposed to be wit, we're witnessing to not rambling off some.
Caesar Kalinowski:Old 2, 000 year old historical facts about a guy who died on a cross they don't even understand or believe and saying so that's why you don't have to worry about your job.
Caesar Kalinowski:What?
Caesar Kalinowski:How does that?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not That's not good news ing anybody, because it doesn't sound like good
Heath Hollensbe:news.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, exactly.
Heath Hollensbe:Good news is good news, right?
Heath Hollensbe:I remember being raised in a church environment where a lot of the, there was like these techniques to evangelism.
Heath Hollensbe:We had the Roman's Road, or there was these Chick tracts, there was different resources, there was even a tactic.
Heath Hollensbe:Certain guys, too, that really just taught this stuff.
Heath Hollensbe:Oh, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, and I won't get into, I don't want to say their names, well
Heath Hollensbe:meaning, awesome, you know, but.
Heath Hollensbe:Good dudes.
Heath Hollensbe:But yeah, I remember this set there was a teaching that came out that was like have you ever stolen a paperclip?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I teach you how to
Caesar Kalinowski:say this like are you a steep?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you a liar a thief or a adulterer?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, have you ever
Heath Hollensbe:looked at a woman and thought you know, you
Caesar Kalinowski:know, you took a paperclip from work never nothing How about a pen accidentally in your pocket?
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, well see you're by
Heath Hollensbe:your own admission.
Heath Hollensbe:You're a lying thieving stealing.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah it's a like I remember that teaching.
Heath Hollensbe:Oh man, me too.
Heath Hollensbe:Where do these people miss the mark?
Heath Hollensbe:Like in some sense, like maybe you can explain if you think that the way that we do evangelism actually reveals maybe some of the things that we tend to think are true about God.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:How, how we see God and what we think the true gospel is and what it's about and what it affects and what it says about us and how we get to live.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll completely speak into what we think it means to witness or to evangelize, to good news people, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll tell you, trickery and deception like this, like, hey, you know, duh, duh, duh, duh, well, have you ever stole paperclip?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, you just told me you weren't, so now you are, you're a lying thief, you know, like I said, I don't think trickery and deception was Jesus model.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I'm pretty sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I, I like to do this.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a bit of a hobby.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think I've shared it on the show before.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, there's, yeah, we'll go down to Portland.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's the Saturday market.
Caesar Kalinowski:If anybody's ever been there, it's really fun.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's open air market and all.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's music and every kind of food and weird, cool t shirts and it's kind of a freak show, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's always the bullhorn guy.
Heath Hollensbe:Oh yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Bullhorn.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's screaming.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's screaming, screaming.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all super distorted.
Caesar Kalinowski:And all you can hear every once in a while, the word like repent or the word hell or wrath.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it'll squeak out and you kind of get that word.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I like to go up to those guys and play dumb and ask really standard questions about the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:And.
Caesar Kalinowski:And yeah, they don't usually end up very happy, you know, I kind of turn, I turn it around and I'm like, well, where's the good news in that because the gospel is called the good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Anyway.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, and here's the thing in all those kinds of methods and you know, if people feel convicted to do it, I know people listening to go like, well, you're saying we shouldn't do speed evangelism.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm going like, consider if it's really good news or not.
Caesar Kalinowski:And consider, where do you see Jesus going up to people and hammering them about wrath and hell and all, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:You just don't.
Caesar Kalinowski:You just don't.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, in these methods, there's no relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:I even had one guy say, Oh, wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're one of those guys that thinks you should be friendly to people first.
Caesar Kalinowski:I said, yeah, friend of sinners.
Caesar Kalinowski:I like Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what I'm trying to be like.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and in these methods, there's no relationship, there's no understanding of their life or their, what they've experienced, their perspectives, past hurts, some problems, things they've been through.
Caesar Kalinowski:And yes, it does reveal our own hearts and understand the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:It takes on a very narrow view of the gospel and treats the good news as if it only applies to our afterlife.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because a lot of that stuff where we go, we take apologetics and we kind of use it to beat up people and try to.
Caesar Kalinowski:argue him into the kingdom and it's not all that good news, but we, you know, they finally hit the mat and go, I give it, it, it's, it's almost always what I've seen.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's always focused on our afterlife and it's never good news for like, Hey, I'm sorry that you, you know, your, your kids at the doctor again, like what you were just going through, you know, London and say, Oh my gosh.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is there good news in there?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, where did you place your hope?
Caesar Kalinowski:Was it in the doctors or was it in your Lord who created London, you know, and so we could talk about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I wasn't like going like, well, you just got to get to church and pray more and then London wouldn't be sick.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like that's not good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Isn't it great that Jesus died on the cross for his sins, you know, why doesn't he heal them?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why I'm healed, you know?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So, yeah, it's
Caesar Kalinowski:just too narrow of a view.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think when, you know, when you see the bullhorn guy, you just go, oh man, what a small, weird, mean understanding of the gospel that person must have, though they're doing it.
Caesar Kalinowski:With true conviction, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, when we look at the life of Jesus, I, I tend to think that we see a lot less of the, you know, get him to say a quick prayer or this three step plan to following himself and a whole lot more of the, come and be with me, like come, come observe my ways, come do life with me, sort of relational evangelism, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Come and follow me, be
Caesar Kalinowski:with me.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what he
Heath Hollensbe:said.
Heath Hollensbe:Come see how I
Caesar Kalinowski:live.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's, it's hard for us to want to believe it.
Caesar Kalinowski:But when Jesus said that.
Caesar Kalinowski:What, and, and he did not make disciples of people who had already said a prayer.
Caesar Kalinowski:When they followed him, they, they started to walk in his ways to come to know the truth that began to set him free.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus says that in John 8.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:You mean that Jesus didn't disciple Christians?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:He didn't get, he, Jesus never said repeat after me and invite me into your heart.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here we go.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, he never did it.
Heath Hollensbe:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so, and by the way, some of his disciples, it says in Matthew 28, when they watched him ascending into the sky, when he returned to the Father, the 11 were there watching and some Still did not believe.
Caesar Kalinowski:So either Jesus sucked at evangelism and discipleship, or he had a longer view and a different understanding of what was going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:Was he actually, in fact, helping them move from unbelief to belief in every area of life?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because the goal was, what true salvation is, is to be discipled into displaying the goodness and glory of God in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Experiencing it, speaking it,
Heath Hollensbe:right?
Heath Hollensbe:All that, right?
Heath Hollensbe:So I keep going back over and over to this idea that Jesus actually wanted people to come and live in the here and now of the kingdom.
Heath Hollensbe:Seeing the world filled with his glory every day, which glory, as we talk about on the show, is what he's like.
Heath Hollensbe:Seeing the world filled with what he's like.
Heath Hollensbe:Him.
Heath Hollensbe:Your life filled with him, yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So it's this relational evangelism that we talk about on the show.
Heath Hollensbe:Um, what are some steps that we can take, if we're feeling maybe convicted right now, that will help us move into more vibrant relationships?
Heath Hollensbe:with intentionality in our neighborhood and our jobs and different areas like that and I think in doing evangelism Yeah, absolutely
Caesar Kalinowski:We're not called to like it says how will they know if they don't hear like you are called to give the reason for your Hope right we they need to we get to well, I think the hearer Okay, the person you're talking to often dictates how our message of the good news is received.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm not saying the gospel changes, but, you know, like, you look at Jesus, you know, he, he, when he went to a blind man, he healed his blindness.
Caesar Kalinowski:He didn't say, get up and walk.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the guy's like, I already can walk.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's what I had for you today, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or, you know, when he, you know, when he told, he didn't tell everybody get up and walk or he didn't spit in the dirt and put, you know, hungry, he fed hungry people.
Caesar Kalinowski:So his good news was always good news in context and therefore that shapes how it may need to be delivered.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you were to say to a three, and that's everything in life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Think about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you were to say to a three year old boy who's out helping his mother in the yard, look at you, you're so big.
Caesar Kalinowski:He'd probably be proud and receive your words as a compliment.
Caesar Kalinowski:But if you went up to his mother with the exact same time and phrase and said, look at you, you're so big, black guy, you know, so your audience matters.
Caesar Kalinowski:So here's, here's, here's a few thoughts.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Ask yourself, do I know enough about this person, their story to give a loving response to that question, whatever it is, or that situation or whatever, um, do I have the necessary relational capital and relationship and trust needed?
Caesar Kalinowski:To get into that discussion with them because I have people throw out polemics sometimes, you know, it's just like what about this?
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like I don't think we have enough a relationship to go there.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's kind of a red herring.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's some capital that needs Yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna you know, here's another thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:How will they hear what I'm trying to communicate?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is there enough back?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why we love getting into the story of God with people as early in the relationship as possible.
Caesar Kalinowski:So they kind of have this overarching understanding of who God is and what he's up to and who he's created us to be, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, how about this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is now and here, the environment, is it conducive for this type of conversation?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is this the right time and place?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause it's not always, but I used to remember thinking like, Oh, I had someone say this to me the other day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I used to be, if anybody, if I ever heard somebody arguing about something and it had some spiritual overtones or it was, I didn't agree with it, it was wrong.
Caesar Kalinowski:I had to get in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:I had to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can't just have a different opinion in the room.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, how about this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it the right time to go there with him or her or, or are there other things that might actually be way more important involved in?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, in their lives right now, and they need to see the father's love and feel like part of his family.
Caesar Kalinowski:They need to come and walk in his ways for a while, letting God deal with that later.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or maybe using you to do that, or maybe using someone else.
Caesar Kalinowski:So apologetics, it's not a dirty word.
Caesar Kalinowski:It just depends on how you use it to whom you're talking and where and when.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So how about to wrap this up?
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's go back to our conversation now between Mike and Aaron and see if there may be a better way to start.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, into a spiritual conversation with somebody than the first example that we heard earlier on.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you remember, okay, so Aaron is this, you know, not believer, but he's a pretty nice guy, pretty gentle guy.
Caesar Kalinowski:And Mike's the guy who's always looking for the opening, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But maybe this is a little better way of getting at it.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So here I go as Aaron.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right,
Heath Hollensbe:man.
Heath Hollensbe:I am so frustrated with politics and our government right now.
Heath Hollensbe:I just, I really do wish there was a better way.
Heath Hollensbe:I hear
Caesar Kalinowski:you, Aaron.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's a lot of pain and division out there right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:People are flippin out.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I feel it inside of me,
Heath Hollensbe:too.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I know you're a Christian and we might have different views on this, but what's your thoughts on what we're experiencing right now?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I mean, I look in the mirror and I want to see this perfect, always loving guy looking back at me each day, but that's not always the case.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I wonder if any real solutions to the fighting and the division in our country needs to start there, like inside of me, and maybe inside of you too, Aaron, first.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like maybe it starts with us.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I guess, I guess it does make sense that cities or countries and nations can't really change if the people in them don't begin to first change.
Heath Hollensbe:I really do believe,
Caesar Kalinowski:Aaron, in a God who is love and calls us to love others in a way that we love ourselves.
Caesar Kalinowski:I do believe that, and I think it starts with us, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that sounds good, but how the heck do we start doing that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that gets pretty, that gets pretty heavy and a bit nuanced because there's a lot of messed up stuff out there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why don't we get together for coffee or maybe a beer later this week and see if we can begin to find some good starting points.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd really like to hear more about your
Heath Hollensbe:story too.
Heath Hollensbe:Sounds great.
Heath Hollensbe:I probably also want to pick your brain a little bit about your fantasy league choices this season.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So can you feel the difference in that there again, this is a bit canned cause you know, we're reading it, but it's not weird.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not an argument.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a much better beginning moving forward towards deep spiritual discussions and relationship with someone.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you're not hiding your faith.
Caesar Kalinowski:In fact, in this case, Aaron already knew, you know, that you're a Christian and he might not believe, but because you were, cause you know, Mike was cool about this.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's an openness there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't, you don't have to win every argument.
Caesar Kalinowski:In fact.
Caesar Kalinowski:Evangelism and witnessing is not an argument.
Caesar Kalinowski:I just, I just don't see that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I just don't see where that's when apologetics is for the defense of the faith within the faith community, but gently.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love that, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:And witnessing is helping people witness, see what we've seen of the beauty and the magnitude and the glory of Christ and his Father.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, amen.
Heath Hollensbe:That's what's going
Caesar Kalinowski:on
Heath Hollensbe:there, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Amen.
Heath Hollensbe:Let's get to the big three for this week.
Heath Hollensbe:And the Big Three, it's something that we want you to walk away with.
Heath Hollensbe:If we could distill the three main takeaways from this particular episode, what would we want you to walk away with?
Heath Hollensbe:I'll tell them to you, but You can download a copy of the Big Three by going to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash Big Three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what would you say are the Big Three for this week?
Heath Hollensbe:Okay, so
Caesar Kalinowski:here, here you go.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here's the Big Three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't miss these.
Caesar Kalinowski:First, Jesus called us and privileged us to be his witness in the world.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are people seeing?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or witnessing in our lives, our attitude, words, and our approach to them.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is most often not Jesus that people reject, but rather our approach to them in unpersonal or pushy or tricky ways.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that what God's really like?
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't think so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, secondly, the gospel is good news for all of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And while apologetic and evangelistic methods are important and may be helpful at times, the Bible does not attribute the success of the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's the gospel that has the power to set people free and restore relationships, not our methods or our perfectly crafted arguments.
Caesar Kalinowski:So go easy on those well meaning doorknockers who arrive at your house, you know, every few weeks.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Third, focusing our evangelism on trying to get people to say a special prayer or on us winning a spiritual tug of war is not a great approach to evangelism.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just hope you're not missing that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Apologetics is for the defense of the faith.
Caesar Kalinowski:Within our faith communities.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that makes for really poor evangelism outside the church and with each other, always remember that it's with gentleness and respect that we're to discuss our differences in our understanding or our belief.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's be sure to get our hearts in that type of position before we jump into debates with others.
Heath Hollensbe:That's good, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Thank you for those big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Again, if you want to get the free download, all you need to do is go to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash big three, and you'll receive the notes for this week.
Heath Hollensbe:Boom.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, if you haven't yet joined our Facebook group, facebook.
Heath Hollensbe:com, go up to the search bar at the top, type in everyday disciple podcast.
Heath Hollensbe:We will add you to the group and you can have conversation with us.
Heath Hollensbe:And yeah, it's like all the
Caesar Kalinowski:groups, you got to request to join kind of thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then it goes ding and we go, you're in.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's just how the groups work.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you're in until you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Start acting like a buffoon, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, if
Heath Hollensbe:you start arguing with people without gentleness and respect.
Heath Hollensbe:You're going.
Heath Hollensbe:Ding, you're out.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, join us next week.
Heath Hollensbe:We're going to talk about how to identify major idols in your life.
Heath Hollensbe:Whoa.
Heath Hollensbe:I think it's going to be a good one.
Heath Hollensbe:Like people, I know I've gotten, I've gotten called out and it's easy to get rid of
Caesar Kalinowski:all the totem poles, all the little statues around your house.
Caesar Kalinowski:Dream catchers.
Caesar Kalinowski:The little bobble head from, you know, the.
Caesar Kalinowski:Magic eight balls.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, also Wilson bobble head.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gotta get rid of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're
Heath Hollensbe:all gone.
Heath Hollensbe:So yeah, join us next week on that show, it'll be released next Monday morning like we do every single week.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's not about bobble heads or totem poles, different kind of idols.
Heath Hollensbe:And we'll expose them next week.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.