How To Develop New Missional Leaders Pt.2
If you are not intentionally developing new leaders within your church or missional community–all the time–you will find yourself with a “leadership vacuum”. Don’t wait until you are lacking leaders who will serve and help with growth. You need to develop new leaders as a part of your ongoing disciple-making process.
This week on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar is joined by one of his personal long-time mentors, John Witte. You’ll be encouraged as they share hard-earned lessons in successfully developing new leaders.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- The importance of waiting until someone asks you to develop them. (Sometimes.)
- How Invitation & Challenge fits into developing new leaders.
- Why your model for doing church may be costing you new leaders.
- 4 critical things required for building providential relationships.
From this episode:
“I really believe that one of the ways that we build providential relationships is through doing four things together: You eat together, you play together, you talk about your life in the context of your faith together, and you work together. These four things are so important!”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
Thanks so much for joining us again this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Join us on Facebook and take part in the discussion!
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it using the social media buttons you see at the top of this page or right below.
Also, please subscribe and leave an honest review for The Everyday Disciple Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Ratings and reviews are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! They do matter in the rankings of the show, and we read each and every one of them.
Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living.
Discipleship and Missional Resources
Transcript
I really believe that one of the ways that we've built providential relationships is through doing four things together.
John Witte:You eat together, you play together.
John Witte:You talk about your life in the context of your faith together, and you work together and Caesar.
John Witte:I think those are the themes that if you want this fantastic relationship with anyone, if you want it with your spouse, if you want it with your children, if you want it with your closest friends, if you want with your colleagues in ministry, whatever.
John Witte:At work.
John Witte:Those are the four things you have to do.
John Witte:That is where I'm encouraging people to be involved with people and to be MAWLIing out of your own purpose because you know that stuff, right?
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:It God let you live that whole life, and as he's redeeming it, you have something very unique to offer.
John Witte:And normally I think this is what other people come to you for.
Announcer:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of.
Announcer:Life.
Announcer:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Announcer:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Announcer:And now here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, here we go.
Caesar Kalinowski:Back together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, we did.
Caesar Kalinowski:An episode last week on MAWLing people.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a, it sounds like er, "mauling", but it's this model assist watch and leave.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's how we develop leaders and, uh, pass on anything to anybody really.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, that was last episode.
Caesar Kalinowski:Today's gonna be part two of that, but I feel like this last week, Tina and I are, Going in deep on the MAWLing because we've been watching two, uh, of our four grandkids for about 10 days.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:At their house.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we're a little outta practice with that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, but here's where the MAWLing comes in from, teaching 'em how to tie shoes to here's how you make scrambled eggs or movie popcorn, or setting the table for dinner with all the stuff and the way it goes.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all a big MAWLing process really.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's just what I was thinking of as I.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was thinking about last week's episode and then also heading into part two, which I'll tell you a little bit more about that as we get closer to, I'm gonna share what's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, if you've not subscribed yet to the podcast, would you do that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Would you go and subscribe so you don't miss an episode?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's every Monday.
Caesar Kalinowski:Take a second.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hit the either the like or the button or hit subscribe.
Caesar Kalinowski:That way you won't miss an episode and they'll be ready waiting for you when you're driving or working at the gym, or whatever's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you need to find a, a platform for that or you wanna check out even new ones, cuz there's always tons of new ones.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love that there's podcasts are exploding.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can go to everyday Disciple dot com slash listen and you'll see a whole list of those right there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, after you hear this episode today, I know that a bunch of you are gonna be going, whoa, I wanna lead like this and I wanna live like this, and I wanna lead my church and my family this way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, if you're interested in doing that and you'd like some help, that's I.
Caesar Kalinowski:So much of what we're teaching in the coaching that we do and helping to encourage you with that set up a custom roadmap so you go step by step, fitting your context and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you'd like to just explore a little bit more about how the coaching works, don't be shy.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can set up a short zoom call with me, maybe with Tina as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll answer any questions you have, get to know your story a little bit better, and see if the coaching is a good fit.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can go to everyday Disciple dot com slash coaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:That'll help you set that all up.
Caesar Kalinowski:Real easy-peasy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, now this is gonna be an extra special episode today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like I said, it's kind of part two.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, it is part two of last week's episode on Developing Leaders because today I have one of my absolute favorite people and a personal mentor with us on the podcast today.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's a personal mentor of mine.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've talked about him before because we've talked a lot about the story of God and how we use that in community and discipleship.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's the one who originally exposed me to that and trained me in doing chronological.
Caesar Kalinowski:Bible storying.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's really the story of God process that we use and he trained us in all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I owe him a real, a huge debt for that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm gonna bring, I'm gonna bring him on in a minute here, but last week when we talked about developing new Missional leaders and using that simple process called MAWL that I was just talking about, model assist, watch and leave.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go back and listen to that episode, by the way, if you haven't, because this is sort of part two of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But he's the mentor that I learned that from as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's how mentors work.
Caesar Kalinowski:So our discussion today is sort of part two of what you learned last episode and kind of hearing it straight from the My Mentor's mouth.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he takes this so much further.
Caesar Kalinowski:He goes really deep into leadership development and how forming people really works and, oh, I felt like I was well being mentored as we, he and I talked, his name's John Witte, I think I mentioned that last time.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's a long time friend of mine and mentor and, and I met him while we were.
Caesar Kalinowski:Out working in South Sudan and I've learned so much from him and so will you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Today we're gonna discuss this leadership development and I just know there will be some truth and leadership bombs dropped on y'all today.
Caesar Kalinowski:So John, welcome brother, and thanks for being with me.
John Witte:Thank you, Caesar.
John Witte:Good to be with you guys.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh man.
Caesar Kalinowski:I am so stoked to have you on.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's amazing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's just give folks a little bit of the context that I have just as far as your ministry life and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I met you in Africa and you were I M B International Mission Board Missionary had been out in the field a lot of places for a lot, a lot of time.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just give us the, you know, the, the one two minute version of the arc of your ministry experience and then after you came out of the field and all that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:So
John Witte:yeah, Caesar, I was raised in a, uh, Southern Baptist home.
John Witte:My dad was a pastor, so I was around ministry, but actually I wasn't all that keen about it, uh, to be honest with you, I guess.
John Witte:And, uh, met Linda at Baylor and, uh, knew that, you know, definitely knew I was called into ministry and to preach and things like that.
John Witte:Linda was a missionary kid, grew up in East Africa.
John Witte:Her parents were medical missionaries there with the I M B.
John Witte:And so we ended up going back there and, um, we were, you know, 17 years in East Africa.
John Witte:When we came back, we had always, uh, done our stateside assignments in Midland, Texas, out in West Texas and that, that they were so kind and generous to us.
John Witte:It was just the most opposite place you could go for where we had been four years at a time in East Africa.
John Witte:It was lovely.
John Witte:We came back and we joined them for three years and then after that went to San Antonio and joined up at City Church with my lifelong best friend, uh, who had said, if you ever come back, I want you to join me here.
John Witte:And so I became a teaching pastor and sort of the pastor on staff for the staff.
John Witte:At City Church and, uh, just left there a few years ago.
John Witte:Uh, kind of went into semi-retirement sort of, and uh,
John Witte:developed.
John Witte:It's such a young age too.
John Witte:Crazy.
John Witte:Yeah, it's such a young age.
John Witte:You lazy, you lazy
John Witte:guy.
John Witte:I develop my own counseling, uh, ministry and uh, that's a lot of what I do now.
John Witte:Uh, just recently, uh, am doing an interim in the Woodlands and so pretty busy with those two things right now as well as.
John Witte:Living out here with Linda, our kids, grandkids,
John Witte:things like that.
John Witte:Yeah, well, like the true mentor that you are, cuz that's just who you are.
John Witte:You're never gonna be fully retired cuz you keep moving further away from, uh, like things and people, like people are just willing to get you there, you know what I mean?
John Witte:I feel the same way.
John Witte:I hope, I hope I don't somehow disqualify myself and that I get to, you know, into old age.
John Witte:Cuz like I have other mentors, same thing.
John Witte:They're, they're getting pretty on in years and they're busy as ever, you know.
John Witte:Not cuz they have to, but just cuz they get to.
John Witte:Right.
John Witte:So, hey.
John Witte:No, I, I wish we, I'm
John Witte:sorry, go ahead.
John Witte:I was just gonna say, I'm still, even today I've been in multiple email conversations with my lifelong mentor, uh, around a talk that I'm doing this weekend.
John Witte:And so he's still MAWLing and me right in the middle of it.
John Witte:I don't preach the same way that he does, but we're having this back and forth.
John Witte:And, uh, so Dave and I are just continuing to do life together.
John Witte:Very much that same idea of, uh, probably right now he's watching is what he's doing.
John Witte:And he's saying, that isn't what I taught.
John Witte:You didn't Right.
John Witte:You know,
Caesar Kalinowski:because in this, case, the watching might be listening.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
John Witte:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I wish we had all the time in the world, but I want to talk about MAWL because it has served us really, really well, and it worked well to point out the gaps in my own leadership and discipleship with people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because like I mentioned in some of our training with folks that I tended.
Caesar Kalinowski:I tended to, Hey, I've been modeling it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Weren't you paying attention?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well you'll be fine.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I would just jump right to leave, you know, and there was no loop in back.
Caesar Kalinowski:There was none of that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:And um, and one of the things we tell people all the time, you're not really MAWLing anybody unless they know they're being mauled, cuz they gotta be paying attention.
Caesar Kalinowski:And watching with a different eye.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they need to, they need to, you know, understand that and why, like when you're giving 'em feedback and adjusting things and saying, Hey, that was great, but this could be different.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're like, why are you doing that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, oh cuz I'm actually trying to train you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, what are your thoughts on like the, let's go way to the beginning when you're like, Hey, I need to MAWL this person in this, or even when someone's MAWLing you.
Caesar Kalinowski:How do you, how do you broach that with folks, you know, in your, in your experiences, you're gonna develop leaders in various ways, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:As you Disciple, how do you say, hey, like, here's something I wanna show you, and here will be a process, or, or do you
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:You know, Caesar part of my approach to it, and I'm not suggesting this needs to be the case for everyone, but, um, I'm reticent to take the initiative to try to, uh, MAWL someone.
John Witte:I, what I really prefer is, Is, I prefer for someone else to say, would you help me with this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
John Witte:And the reason for that Caesar is I, uh, I think that the vast majority of people tend not to really be all that interested, or they're not at a place in their life right now where they can be MAWLed.
John Witte:And so, The idea of trying to MAWL somebody who doesn't want it.
John Witte:I think you, you can waste a lot of time and energy there.
John Witte:Not that it's ever ultimately a waste of time or energy to actually to build into someone's life, but in terms of bang for the buck and what you're gonna get for it, I think it's really helpful.
John Witte:If someone else kind of initiates conversation and then around that, I would normally say, well, here's how I typically do that kind of thing.
John Witte:Now, I think the exception to that.
John Witte:Is say like with your own family, your own children, uh, people who are really close to you, that you have a God-given responsibility for.
John Witte:Yeah, I'm gonna MAWL in whether he likes it or not because you're my son and I'm, and you may not like me for it, but here's, here's how that's gonna go because I'm responsible for you already.
John Witte:And I took that on.
John Witte:But in terms of just with people that I'm doing community with, I, I typically want them to have a desire to do that.
John Witte:And I think it makes the MAWLing process.
John Witte:Much more, um, affected.
Caesar Kalinowski:Great.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me ask you this then, cuz I'm not disagreeing with that, that that falls right into what we talk about when, uh, in, in making disciples you're calibrating, invitation and challenge in their lives, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you're constantly invitation to more and more time with you and access, and then you're upping the relational challenge of things.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you can get to the point of going, Hey, What would you think about starting to take some ownership here?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or what, what would you think about, you know, if we taught you this?
Caesar Kalinowski:So let me say, let me ask you this cuz I, I'm dying to hear your, in light of what you just said.
Caesar Kalinowski:What if you're in a community and you're kind of doing like everything and you and your wife are kind of doing it all and kind of, you know, everything that happens, you initiate and, and you want 'em multiply.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you gotta start MAWLing people and, and developing new leaders, but no one's asking.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then how do you, how do you say, hey, You know, we've been banking lots of invitation and relational trust here, and I wanna, I wanna at least ask them, Hey, would, would you, you know, look, I'm gonna bring the challenge, if you will, up the slope a little.
Caesar Kalinowski:So how do you navigate that versus just well?
Caesar Kalinowski:For the last 20 years, we've been waiting for someone to ask
John Witte:and nobody's asking.
John Witte:So I would say that if you're in a model at church where that's what's going on and your model permits that, then to me, you don't have something that's real realistic or.
John Witte:Actually corresponds to reality.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, which I think, what do you mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like which model supports which thing?
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm just not clear.
John Witte:A "model it church" that would allow me to be the person doing it all.
John Witte:And no one else has any interest in taking on responsibility for that model.
John Witte:Uh, I think whatever that model of church is that you're using there, that would indicate to me.
John Witte:That it's not in the normal flow of life, cuz I don't think that's how life normally happens.
John Witte:Whenever people are involved with one another in things that I would call real, not contrived, but real.
John Witte:I think there is a natural desire on the part of some to learn how to do something else better.
John Witte:Let me give a non-church example of that.
John Witte:Uh, I'm a, I'm part of a hunt gang.
John Witte:And it's been five of us, and one of the newest guys that we added a few years ago was a guy who moved down from Maryland and he had hunted up in Maryland, what he'd never hunted in Texas, and now he's a part of this gang.
John Witte:I can assure you.
John Witte:He was asking right away, can you guys show me how to do this?
John Witte:Can you help me with this?
John Witte:And, and believe me, that's a part of the culture of our community, is that we build into one another.
John Witte:We give critique and advice to one another whether you want it or not, because you're part of the gang.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:And we're managing this thing and so we're gonna do that.
John Witte:And he naturally wanted that.
John Witte:If, if we had, uh, if he had no interest in that, he probably would not have been a part of that gang with us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gotcha.
John Witte:And so I, I think it's, I think whenever you're having to beg other people to take leadership or you're having to beg other people, please let me MAWL you.
John Witte:That's an indication that what you have there is something that you have designed and created that isn't normal or ordinary.
John Witte:Well,
Caesar Kalinowski:and I, I couldn't disagree.
Caesar Kalinowski:However, I'm not talking about having to beg people.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm talking about people that are People of Peace believing, People of Peace, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they're leaning into relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so at one point, you know, cuz they are leaning in, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:They're curious, you know, whatever you've asked them in the past, they're like, I'm on it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they do, they're yeses a yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, we talk about like, how do you know those leaders?
Caesar Kalinowski:But.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, but this gives me good food for thought that it should be much more normative.
Caesar Kalinowski:However, not all communities or churches are that way, are they?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:No, they aren't.
Caesar Kalinowski:And in fact, cause we built a lot of consumers, man, we have built a lot of consumers that are happy to be part of your Missional Community or your oikos or whatever, just because they dig hanging out and they're nice as heck.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you ask them, they'll do something, but they're not initiating anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:How you gonna get to multiplication?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:So,
John Witte:So it's just one of the ways that a person identifies as a leader, right?
John Witte:One of the things I learned in my time in Athe or when I first got there, everyone was attracted to me because I was the guy who, I was white.
John Witte:Number one.
John Witte:I distracted attention, quite honestly, cuz of my, my ethnicity.
John Witte:And I was a minority.
John Witte:I was also American, and they saw that quickly.
John Witte:And so Cesar, everyone assumed, uh, he has money and maybe I need some money.
John Witte:And so people were
Caesar Kalinowski:attracted to me.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've been there many times, my friend Oh yeah,
John Witte:all the time.
John Witte:And so, but then when I went to, uh, Northeastern Uganda to work up there, at that point in my missionary career, I had been on the field quite a long time.
John Witte:Uh, I did everything using story, song, dance and drama, and.
John Witte:I walked everywhere.
John Witte:I went, literally, I didn't have a vehicle up there.
John Witte:We flew in and out.
John Witte:I remember
Caesar Kalinowski:that you said the ministry can't go any further than we can walk it.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's their life.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's right.
Caesar Kalinowski:We avoided that anchor in my heart.
Caesar Kalinowski:The importance of true proximity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not false proximity.
John Witte:So here's what I did.
John Witte:I, I had people coming to me all the time cuz they had been other missionaries there who drove everywhere and.
John Witte:So I had people come to me say, could I go with you?
John Witte:And I'd say, yeah, sure.
John Witte:Meet us tomorrow at this time, we're walking to this place.
John Witte:And they wouldn't show up because they didn't wanna walk.
John Witte:And to be honest, they didn't have the calories to walk.
John Witte:They were hungry people.
John Witte:I mean, they didn't have, you know, the fat levels that I had, I showed up to walk with
Caesar Kalinowski:you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good, fair.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've had a fly to Uganda to walk with you and it's one of my absolute favorite memories and experiences.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, so Walking Village to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
John Witte:What I learned was is that leaders also self-identify and those are the people that you want to build into.
John Witte:And so they're not always the, the smartest people.
John Witte:They may not be the wealthiest people in the group.
John Witte:The guys I worked with at their Caesar, they were very ordinary and they had been passed over by other missionaries who are there, but doesn't that sound a lot like Jesus and his 12?
John Witte:And the ones he called.
John Witte:Sure does.
John Witte:They, they've been passed over and yet he called them and they were dying to walk with, they were dying to following.
John Witte:And so those ended up being the guys that I MAWLed is the guys who self-identified and ladies who would self-identify to actually, you know, do that with you.
John Witte:And so that's who I think you want to put your time and effort into.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, man, good word there.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I'm, I'm thinking everybody who's gonna be, uh, listening to this, watching this is gonna back up to hear that up, including me.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hear that again.
Caesar Kalinowski:So let's, let's go a little more granular now.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are some of the myriads of ways that you've MAWLed people?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Once that's established or however that relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or that skill or that task.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we'll, obviously you have that hunting example, but we'll keep it, we'll keep it within areas of ministry.
Caesar Kalinowski:I you were just mentioning being MAWLed and even preaching still by one of your mentors.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amazing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, what are some other things that come to mind that are, you've pretty commonly used?
Caesar Kalinowski:MAWL modelless assist, watch and leave, uh, to develop people.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are some other areas?
John Witte:Well, I do that right now.
John Witte:I'm doing it right now in preaching.
John Witte:All right.
John Witte:So like where I'm doing this interim.
John Witte:I'm not there all the time.
John Witte:And so they gave me a couple other staff guys that would get on stage for a couple of weeks in a row when I'm gone.
John Witte:So I'm kind of three weeks on, two weeks off.
John Witte:And one of the things they asked me to do was just to develop them.
John Witte:And so at at City Church, we did team teaching.
John Witte:No, the guy who got in the pulpit was never in the pulpit with a talk that he had written only by himself.
John Witte:But you had three or four other people's eyes and hands on that.
John Witte:And so what I'm doing right now with these couple of guys is I have a, we have a teaching team meeting and obviously it is a meeting set up cuz I'm not there all the time.
John Witte:I'm not in the Woodlands.
John Witte:But between that and our Zoom calls and our email and follow ups and things like that, I've, I'm actually, I think, MAWLing them to try to help improve their, you know, stage communication, uh, capacities.
John Witte:And so obviously I'm modeling for them what I'd like 'em to do when I'm speaking, but I'm also modeling a system and a process for them.
John Witte:We set up a 10 day out so that, uh, when you're getting ready to speak on a Sunday, 10 days prior to that, you submit a manuscript to the team, the teaching team, so that we can all look at it.
John Witte:And, and in that manuscript, so Mo I'm MAWLing that process of getting ready ahead of time.
John Witte:Then in the manuscript itself, we're actually going through it and edit, editing that.
John Witte:And so that's where I'm assisting, I'm assisting them and how they're handling the text.
John Witte:I'm assisting them in the use of our particular model that we use for preaching there.
John Witte:It's a, it's just a very much a hands-on be involved then.
John Witte:They actually get on stage and they preach and I watch cuz I'm not there, but I'm watching.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:The, uh, you know, internet hear from the river and then I'm involved with them right away.
John Witte:And, and watching of course is all about giving feedback and kind of saying, Hey, that's not quite what I meant.
John Witte:That's not what I showed you to do.
John Witte:Remember this.
John Witte:And so it's critiquing and things like that after the fact.
John Witte:And so we are involved in that give and take right now.
John Witte:And I'm certainly not at the leave point with them, and we're not as far down the road as we'd like, but every 10 days we are in this cycle of m a w every 10 days with one another.
John Witte:So that's just something that I'm doing at present.
John Witte:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I'll tell you one of the, one of the powerful things about MAWL and MAWLing people, um, that we have found two, actually two things.
Caesar Kalinowski:One is, Um, when they know what's going on, and this is the process, not only are they getting a process, then in other words, I can, I know how to pass this on.
Caesar Kalinowski:However, they also, they, they understand why you're giving 'em feedback.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're not just picking at 'em like out of the blue, you're picking on my preaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why is that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, no, we're in this process.
Caesar Kalinowski:The other thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's beautiful.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that takes all that relational, why would never say that to somebody about their, I'm like, you would if you were in a MA and development, you know, relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they would welcome it, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:The other thing that happens is when you MAWL people in one area and they feel confident and you've helped them get to that point and mastery and all these things, when you start to do it in another area, they're not like, Ugh, like, you're gonna abdicate this.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're gonna drop me.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, no, you're gonna model it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna get to watch, ask questions, then you're gonna help me do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I might even get to help you in this thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then you're gonna watch and give feedback.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you, you don't have that reticent of like, well, let's, we're taking on a new thing, or we're, you're gonna be leading in this, in, you know, in a while or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it's so powerful in that when, when it's really in place as part of
John Witte:your culture.
John Witte:It is.
John Witte:And it, and I, I can give you another example of that happening to me yesterday.
John Witte:So in my, in my counseling ministry, part of what goes on in counseling is obviously it's a two-way street, right?
John Witte:It's a two-way communication.
John Witte:And so when people come to me for counseling, I, I'll, I'll do that with them.
John Witte:And then there are always some who naturally go on to say, man, this has been so helpful to me.
John Witte:I would really like to learn how to do this with some other people.
John Witte:And you know, like I'm working with a lady right now named Rosie.
John Witte:And um, and we just finished her story and a lot of her angst and concern is just around a relationship with her husband.
John Witte:And so she has in every relationship in her life, she lives as a hero except in her relationship to her spouse.
John Witte:And it all goes back to her story.
John Witte:But she is this truly this heroic individual who is constantly encouraging.
John Witte:People, wants to know how to actually do this with other people.
John Witte:And so the first thing we did is we worked through her own story.
John Witte:And by taking her through the six steps of my process, in a sense, we were modeling for her and she was experiencing right there herself.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:What it looks like, sounds like, feels like whenever you're working with someone else.
John Witte:And so that is always our baseline.
John Witte:Now we're going back and we're actually saying we're gonna learn how story worked by watching some movies together.
John Witte:And so she's watching Lion King this week.
John Witte:You, I've watched with my kids.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause lion not the
John Witte:matrix.
John Witte:Come on.
John Witte:Not the matrix.
John Witte:No, it's just we're going to the simplest thing.
John Witte:Disney is like, the narrative arc was so basic to it.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:So we're using that and we're gonna go and, and so Rosie was the one who said, I want to do this by walking her through her, own story.
John Witte:She's already seen the most basic fundamental piece.
John Witte:Now we're going back.
John Witte:To actually do some formalized training, but even the formal training is somewhat informal and it'll just continue to weave her life story and the things I want to teach her together with that.
John Witte:And so I see whenever you, uh, to your point that whenever you set up a relationship with someone and they know that you care about 'em, and they know that you accept them and they know that you love them, and they know that you're not judging them.
John Witte:They learn to trust you and whatever.
John Witte:They may end up asking you actually to even MAWL them in areas that you would say, I'm not sure I'm competent to mo you there, but they still wanna know what you think because there is a depth of relationship there and a trust.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:That is fundamental to
Caesar Kalinowski:it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love that you assigned her a movie to watch.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, as part of that, we are, uh, we're coaching lots of people and, and working through different things in our coaching where we've MAWLed people on how to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Build their own story.
Caesar Kalinowski:And now we're working on some Gospel listening things and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so one of the things I said is, okay, so you're getting this movement creation, fall redemption restoration this week I want you to watch your favorite TV show or movie or whatever, and then hit me up, you know, in text or box or whatever and let me know the movements.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And so one of the guys got back on, you know, within 24 hours and he was at, happened to pick a show I really like, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I knew exactly what he was talking about.
Caesar Kalinowski:He was dead on.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was, there's the movement, you know.
John Witte:Know, Caesar.
John Witte:It it, one of the things that you're saying, I'm saying it, uh, I remember sat off always saying to you and my buddy that I was doing city church with is the importance of templates.
John Witte:And when you're MAWLing, people having templates that you have used that, you know, they were, that's what a recipe is when you're teaching somebody how to cook.
John Witte:You know, you, you're teaching somebody how to cut up a chicken, how to make some dish, things like that.
John Witte:You're actually doing it, you know?
John Witte:No, not like that.
John Witte:Like this, you know?
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:And recipes.
John Witte:Their templates is what they are.
John Witte:And Caesar templates for our lives are very important to all of us.
John Witte:And when we have a template that works and that we believe in, that's legitimate, that's based out of the scriptures, then we're able to.
John Witte:Confidently pass those templates onto people and that's a part of what our MAWLing is based around.
John Witte:Once they have that and can do it and you've taken 'em through the MAWL process, then they can easily pass that template onto someone else.
John Witte:Yeah, completely.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, yeah, I love that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, that's gonna cause me to think through other things that we have templated, you know, and things that we have not yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll bet they're gonna squarely fall into the camps of.
Caesar Kalinowski:The templated stuff is like, it seems to be reproducing itself and the stuff that we're just being, I, I use the term, uh, Yoda, Jesus, you know, like, oh, that guy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, you're so smart.
Caesar Kalinowski:I never could do that cuz I haven't broken it down.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes, you can.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
John Witte:You know, one of the mistakes I often make, people ask me all the time, I know how to do stuff, but it's only up here in my head.
John Witte:I don't have a template for it.
John Witte:So people will ask me that about cooking.
John Witte:And it's like, yeah, I don't have a, could you gimme the recipe for that?
John Witte:I don't have a recipe.
John Witte:In fact, I don't like to write recipes down.
John Witte:I just like to cook outta my head.
John Witte:Okay, yeah, I can do that.
John Witte:It doesn't mean they can.
John Witte:So the, the taking the time to put the, put it in a template form is actually a way of serving someone else who can't do what you can do just out of their head.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:And this is true in, in ministry as well.
John Witte:And so, There are things that I know I can do because they come naturally to me, and those tend to be the themes that I do, that I focus on.
John Witte:But that doesn't mean everyone else can do 'em, and so you have to do the serving work of giving people a template that they can actually hang onto.
John Witte:He said
Caesar Kalinowski:something real important there too, I think, John, is that you're not gonna MAWL everybody in every area of their spiritual life or life.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's just like in community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Tina has templated out and taught people how to shop and how to, you know, prepare meals for like a large community and what do you do for leftovers and what if someone comes over and they, they're gluten free or what, you know, she, she teaches all that stuff and, and, and time at the stove and showing people our favorite stuff and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't do that right.
Caesar Kalinowski:In our communities and our life though, I can cook and I have.
Caesar Kalinowski:I have taught like my grandson, poke, poke, stir.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, this is how we're gonna do the eggs now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Poke, poke, look at those yolks, you know, but Tina's the one, she
John Witte:did it with our kids.
Caesar Kalinowski:They all cook like champs.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now she's, she's MAWLing the grandkids.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's exactly the term we use, you know, we're like, you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:You have to MAWL our grandson Patton here and, and how to make the popcorn.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, she has.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he's like the, he's five.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's the best popcorn maker
John Witte:in our family.
John Witte:I wanna go, let me go to another thing and get your feedback on this.
John Witte:Great.
John Witte:I really believe that one of the ways that we've built providential relationships is through doing four things together.
John Witte:You, uh, you eat together, you play together, you talk about your life in the context of your faith together, and you work together and Caesar.
John Witte:I think those are the things that if you want this fantastic relationship with anyone, if you want it with your spouse, If you want it with your children, if you want it with your closes friends, if you want it with your colleagues and ministry, whatever, at work, those are the four things you have to do.
John Witte:How does and, and the, and the doing of those things over and over again together, it seems to me is a template and it's a part of a MAWLing process, even if I don't necessarily follow, you know, call it m a w l.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:What are your thoughts on that?
John Witte:Hundred
Caesar Kalinowski:percent.
Caesar Kalinowski:We, we have what we call the discipleship rhythms, the six rhythms of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I've shared 'em with you the same day.
Caesar Kalinowski:You shared 'MAWL with me.
Caesar Kalinowski:You remember this?
Caesar Kalinowski:We were in that, that ministry home, uh, out in the Savannah anyway.
Caesar Kalinowski:And these six discipleship rhythms are always happening in our life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we say, that's what you're doing already, but now we're gonna do it with some intentionality.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's like getting to know each other's stories, celebrating recreating, which is playing together and resting or working and resting together.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's listening, you know, like who are we listening to?
Caesar Kalinowski:Do we wanna listen to some stuff together?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are we listening to God both backward and forward?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, all that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I a hundred percent agree with that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I'll tell you what jumped my heart right away is when people ask us, how have you.
Caesar Kalinowski:How have you gotten so far into the depth of relationship with people consistently, that you are having community?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, cuz for us it's not a weekly meeting.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we don't just do the same one thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're looking to, you know, we want 'em to be part of our family, part of the oikos.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so all the stuff you're saying, we're like, I right away want to get past just having a meal together.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're like, well, that's for some, that's like the mountain, the climb, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, well, not for us, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:But then like we are always watching some comedy afterwards, or we're gonna, we're gonna go through our favorite soundtracks and I let everybody like, what's your favorite songs from high school?
Caesar Kalinowski:What song did you play at your wedding and all that?
Caesar Kalinowski:And this bonds you and it's funny, and so always tell people, give us six months with somebody in community and we're gonna have eaten million times together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Played together, worked together, laughed together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably cried and talked about some deep stuff and prayed for one another.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm not talking, they're even Christians yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Just like Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because we're doing those, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:And is that a template for those people at that point?
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably not.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But the people that were discipling it, coaching, yes, yes it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so, Part of why folks come out here and wanna be with us for training, or they'll come in for a weekend, or we'll go and do a small retreat with just folks for coaching or whatever, is we wanna be able to model more of that template.
Caesar Kalinowski:So they kind of have, they might, folks might come thinking like, I'm going to a conference.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're like, no.
Caesar Kalinowski:It felt like we hung out like a family all weekend.
Caesar Kalinowski:But boy, oh boy, I got set free in this area and I've never laughed harder about that and I feel like I made a new best friend in my life in so-and-so.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, there you go.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's the kingdom of God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Breaking in.
Caesar Kalinowski:Spiritual freedom, relational peace, increasingly the two things that were broken in the garden being restored by the power of the Gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how that sits for you, but that's, yeah, that's what I hear when I hear you talking about those things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
John Witte:Good.
John Witte:Yeah, that's, I, I think we're saying the same thing.
John Witte:It's good to hear you talk about it.
John Witte:Let me bring up another thing.
John Witte:We haven't, we haven't swapped each other in so long.
John Witte:I'm, I'm doing so much now with people discovering their life purpose.
John Witte:Through God's redemption of their own story, right?
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:So all the chaos and the conflict and the pain of your past, why did God let you go through that?
John Witte:He let you go through that because he wants to redeem it and there are certain things that came out of that.
John Witte:You, you've got a skillset out of that and you have tremendous energy about something and there's also probably some.
John Witte:Category of person that you really care deeply about.
John Witte:They touch your heart and you're drawn to that them, and it's the overlap of these three things.
John Witte:What do I have tremendous energy for?
John Witte:I love it.
John Witte:I can't get enough of it.
John Witte:I could do it all day long.
John Witte:I can't tire of it.
John Witte:What am I really great at?
John Witte:My skillset and the people that I care about, the overlap of those three.
John Witte:The edge ho of it is your live purpose and Caesar.
John Witte:What I'm.
John Witte:Trying to get people to do is to discover their life purpose out of their own story.
John Witte:See how that combines, where that intersects, of course, with God's story.
John Witte:And then live out your purpose in order to reach your full potential for which God placed you on the earth and though, and as you reach your full potential, and then you use your potential for the benefit of others.
John Witte:I think that's what it actually means to follow Jesus.
John Witte:You give your life away through the lens of your own life purpose.
John Witte:Wow.
John Witte:It's part and parcel of who you are.
John Witte:It's what you uniquely have as
Caesar Kalinowski:an image bear uniquely displaying some aspect of who God is and what he's like.
John Witte:I love it.
John Witte:And so that is where I'm encouraging people also, or I would be to be involved with people and to be MAWLing.
John Witte:Out of your own purpose because you know that stuff, right?
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:It God let you live that whole life and as he's redeeming it, you have something very unique to offer.
John Witte:And normally Caesar, I think this is what other people come to you for.
John Witte:Like you'll, I laugh at this.
John Witte:I
Caesar Kalinowski:don't know if you will Hold on one second here, but here, here's what's going on in all of our headss, some guy named Paul said, gotta be all things to all men.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:He like, darn it, but I suck at most stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:At FedEx,
John Witte:so, so all things to all men obviously is this servant concept that I'm here for you, not you're here for me to take from you.
John Witte:I think that's what is at the core of it, that's what it means to give your life away for the benefit of others.
John Witte:You actually care about those other people.
John Witte:All right.
John Witte:Sorry to interrupt you there.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:So let me see if I can get my train of thought back cuz I, um Oh, okay.
John Witte:So, When I came back on the mission field, I had not taken a, a spiritual gifts inventory in like 17 years.
John Witte:And so I thought, well, I oughta do that as I'm getting started in ministry again.
John Witte:So I took one and the first thing that came up on this Spiritual Gifts inventory was wisdom.
John Witte:And I didn't believe it, so I took it again.
John Witte:I took another one, and Wisdom came up again at the top.
John Witte:That's my number one gift.
John Witte:The reason I flushed it Caesar was because I look back on my own life and I said, I don't think I've been all that wise.
John Witte:I think most of what I learned, I learned from the mistakes that I made.
John Witte:Well, nonetheless, it was proven out to be true that at City Church they asked the people and you know, there were thousands in attendance and they asked them, they said, who?
John Witte:How do you see our different staff people?
John Witte:And it was like, who do you see Witte as?
John Witte:And no Witte is everyone's father.
John Witte:That's how they saw me.
John Witte:I was like the old man who was everyone's father who, you know, had this huge father wound or their dad left them and they never, they didn't grow up with a dad or whatever.
John Witte:I was like the father figure and I became the wise guy in, in a good sense, on behalf of these people, this is what people nowadays come to me for and.
John Witte:They see that in me and I, I'm still sometimes amazed that I could have a gift of wisdom.
John Witte:It has to be given from God because I don't see how I earned it.
John Witte:But nonetheless, it's what I have to offer and give away to people and I, and so I think there is something unique about each of us, and it is, it, it is at that point that we have the special opportunity to MAWL and to serve and, and give our lives away to people.
Caesar Kalinowski:See that what that does is that allows people to be who God created to be.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go after that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't be shy or embarrassed about that, or say that's a gift.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know that that's a gift from God and I wanna steward that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, it also takes the pressure off of you can MAWL people and what you're absolutely gifted at and good at.
Caesar Kalinowski:And though they might not have that same level of gifting of you that, that you have, they can certainly grow and learn in it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's not everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:You gotta most money.
Caesar Kalinowski:However,
John Witte:however, don't say one other good thing about that.
John Witte:Yeah.
John Witte:And that is if you're really gifted at something Caesar and somebody else isn't going to be, when it comes to watching and you're critiquing of them, you have to be generous because they're never possibly going to do it at the level you would do it, right?
John Witte:Yes.
John Witte:And sometimes we can be too critical, and what I've learned from my mentor, Who is a genius IQ and can do most things better than I can, he is phenomenally generous toward what I do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for saying that about me, but I Yeah, you're welcome.
John Witte:And so I think that's a, that's a very granular piece on the, on the watch level is that is our generosity and grace toward people who maybe can't do something as well as we can do it naturally, but it's encouraging to now.
John Witte:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, lots of wisdom in that, brother.
Caesar Kalinowski:All of this and some bonus things on even identifying the things we're passionate about.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know I'm gonna get a lot of folks asking about this and also, but I, I'm gonna go ahead and, and, and wrap us up, brother.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is so good to see you and, and hear you and experience that wisdom again.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's been a, a little bit too long since we've spoken.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Very good brother.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Again, I promised you, I promised you he was gonna drop some bombs on you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So much to think about there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now as, uh, always I'm gonna leave you with big three takeaways.
Caesar Kalinowski:Kind of hard to distill this down today, really, really was.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I want you to have the big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:If nothing else, you're not gonna wanna miss those and they're written down.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can get a printable PDF of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just go to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three b i g three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so here's the big three for this week.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was hard to pull 'em out, but here's number one.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you're not intentionally developing new leaders within your church or Missional, Community.
Caesar Kalinowski:All the time, you'll find yourself with a leadership vacuum.
Caesar Kalinowski:You don't wanna wait until you're lacking leaders who will serve and help with growth.
Caesar Kalinowski:You need to develop new leaders as part of your ongoing Disciple making process.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you do this consistently, I.
Caesar Kalinowski:I promise God will bring growth to your community or your church, but God's not about creating a bunch of Christian orphans, so we want to develop new spiritual parents, so to speak, new leaders before you need them, and then watch what God does.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number two, oftentimes we don't put forth the effort to pass on our knowledge and skills because we like being seen as the expert on everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I, I'm guilty of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It feels good to be the one everyone comes to for solutions and help and insights.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the flip side of this coin is when you don't MAWL people in the things that you're already or naturally good at, others just assume that they could never do what you do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, but MAWLing them shows them no, they can, and I'm gonna help you with it.
Caesar Kalinowski:By modeling your skills, assisting people in doing those things, watching them do it, and giving them feedback, and then leaving them to lead with their own style, you'll give people the confidence that they too can be used by God and probably in many of the same ways they've seen you doing it, but maybe they'll even do it better.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number three, you build providential relationships through doing these four things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Man, I love this from John.
Caesar Kalinowski:He says, you eat together, you play together.
Caesar Kalinowski:You talk about your life in the context of your faith together, and you work and serve together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Doing these four things over and over again together is a template for leadership development, and it's a part of the overall MAWLing process.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm just gonna say those four things again.
Caesar Kalinowski:You eat together, you play together, you talk about your life in the context of your faith together, and you get out and you work and you serve together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll tell you what, that one really rocked me when John was saying that, and again, I want to thank my good friend and mentor John Witte for spilling out his wisdom and allowing us the benefit of his experience from decades literally, of developing successful leaders all over the world.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, well, that's about it for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope you'll join me again next week.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're gonna talk about moving from attracting to deploying.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe you know what that is all about.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just as I say that, remember, leadership development, like we just talked about in this episode in the last, is really discipleship, further up the relational slope.
Caesar Kalinowski:We don't develop leaders and disciples just so we can gather 'em up on a weekend somewhere.
Caesar Kalinowski:We wanna be equipping and sending them out, deploying them, sending them out to make more disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're gonna dive deep into the reality of living as the church in the new Covenant, which is a go and make people rather than a come and see people.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're not gonna wanna miss that.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right, I'll talk to you soon.
Announcer:Thanks for joining us today.
Announcer:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com and remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.