Discipleship Rhythms For a Community on Mission

Ministry and discipleship cannot merely be a series of events on the calendar. If all we have are organized events, then what we offer people is a program. But, if all we do in our disciple-making is organic and rarely organized or predictable, it is hard for people to know what it is we’re asking them to commit to.

This week on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar speaks with master disciple-maker, Gino Curcuruto, on how the rhythms of a community on mission very much mirror life as a family. We need both organized and organic rhythms. We’ll show you how to find and create a balance between them.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

  • Discipleship should not be a program we offer others.
  • How to help people understand what we are asking them to commit to.
  • The need for both organized and organic rhythms in community.
  • How predictable patterns naturally lead to life-on-life together.

Get started here…

Kids from a missional community in a circle looking down at the camera and laughing

From this episode:

“I’ve noticed that it takes very few organized activities as a family to lead to healthy organic rhythms that naturally occur. And those organics then, because you’re doing life-on-life together, oftentimes lead back to sort of micro-organized things. It’s all very natural and easy.

Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…

Thanks for Listening!

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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living.

Everyday Disciple Workshop – Get Access Now!

Get Caesar’s Book TRANSFORMED today.

Discipleship Resources from Missio Publishing

 

Join us on Facebook

Transcript
Caesar Kalinowski:

I can think of some of my own church experiences where it was like, yeah, 99% organized.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I've also known believers, beautiful believers who it's a hundred percent organic.

Caesar Kalinowski:

There's nothing they ever do twice in a row.

Caesar Kalinowski:

What are you learning about the importance of both?

Caesar Kalinowski:

I

Gino Curcuruto:

would use the example of our church, the table of Philadelphia right now, if we just go by the organized structures, here's all you all, the commitment is to following Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's six events a month cuz we have Sunday gatherings and there's usually four like meals in a weekly meal in a house.

Gino Curcuruto:

But if that's what the church is, we've missed following Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

I'm saying that's necessary but not sufficient.

Gino Curcuruto:

And also the My own bend is, that's not super fun, man.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean, those are great things, but there's so much more that's happening in your neighborhood or in your workplace, or on your front porch.

Gino Curcuruto:

That with people if you're opened up to that.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we intentionally reduce the number of organized gatherings to make room for organic opportunities.

Gino Curcuruto:

We just have to train people to pay attention to those and engage them intentionally.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.

Announcer:

In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.

Announcer:

This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.

Announcer:

And now here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Alright, hope you're having a good week or a good day, or whatever's happening

Caesar Kalinowski:

in your world so far.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm pretty excited.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm heading out here right after recording this episode to have some dinner with some close friends from our oikas , some different People of Peace and family and all that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And we're gonna be going out to a.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Really cool restaurant, but then more exciting even.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We're gonna be seeing the comedian Brian Regan tonight.

Caesar Kalinowski:

If you've never heard Brian Regan, he's a really funny guy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

All in all pretty darn clean.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Nothing vulgar, he just doesn't get into it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Super funny.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We've seen him before.

Caesar Kalinowski:

He's coming right here to Tacoma, making it easy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So few minutes away.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We don't have to have any big hassles, parking or any of that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I'm pretty excited.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Get to hear some new Brian Regan.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Hey, do you remember a couple of episodes back?

Caesar Kalinowski:

I mentioned that we were cooking up some new ways to help you make disciples and everyday life and live on mission as a family and church.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, well, exciting news.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's official.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm launching a new group coaching experience where I will be personally helping you establish the foundations and framework for discipleship as a lifestyle, both for your family, but also and help you get on the same page with your spouse and family, spiritually and missionally more than ever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's also gonna help you grow in your ability to speak and experience the Gospel in normal life conversations, and certainly help you experience more spiritual freedom and relational peace.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now my goal is to help 20 people with this in the months ahead.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And because it's gonna be a big deep dive and a lot of access to us.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So if, if you'd like help in these areas or just wanna talk a little bit more about it, let me know.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just send me an email.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You can, it's easy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's Caesar everyday.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Disciple dot.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just make sure you spell Caesar Wright, C a E s a R, calling the pizza or the salad, Caesar everyday Disciple dot com and just say, Hey, tell me more about this new coaching.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Okay?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I will, and by the way, the 20 awesome people that do join me before the end of this month.

Caesar Kalinowski:

When this kicks off, we'll be getting some incredible bonus experiences, time with us and all that, and the best deal I'll ever be offering for this coaching.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I'm pretty excited about it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I, it's too much to talk about here, but if you are just even interested in, in this new super flexible, high touch way, I wanna help you do that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Okay?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just 20, so let me know.

Caesar Kalinowski:

All righty.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now, today I'm gonna bring on a guest, a really good friend of mine.

Caesar Kalinowski:

His name's Gino Curcuruto.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We met a while back.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We're gonna tell you that whole story and talk about all that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I don't even have to set this up much more to say you are in for a treat.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I really think you're gonna love this.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Listen to this talk that we had and then I'll come back at the end and give you a few more thoughts and wrap things up.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Hey, Gino.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's so good to both see you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm looking at you though.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Everybody else can't see you, but it's also really good to talk to you and have you back on the Everyday, disciple.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Podcast, how you been man?

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm doing well,

Gino Curcuruto:

Caesar.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's really good to see you hear you and be with you for sure.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, it's great to be back.

Gino Curcuruto:

You're still in Philadelphia, right?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes, sir.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Love it here.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I imagine you're like living way out in the cushy suburbs and you sort of drive in and you drop off like an hour of ministry a week and drive back out.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But you call it Philly Church Plant, right?

Gino Curcuruto:

You know me better than that.

Gino Curcuruto:

It is not that at all, but thanks for setting me up for that.

Gino Curcuruto:

Now we live in the thick of it, in uh, in a, a challenging neighborhood and uh, where, where God is present and at work and we're following him in the every day.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I don't wanna be like, my mom used to be like if I was in Africa on Mission and she heard anything happened in Africa.

Caesar Kalinowski:

She was certain it happened there.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm like, it's a whole continent, mom.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's a really big place.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just like our European friends would say.

Caesar Kalinowski:

What's going on with all this on the news, like, well, that was in Florida.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We live in Seattle.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's like really the opposite side of the country, you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So when I see stuff on Philly, on the news, unfortunately quite often, and not always so awesome.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, and I know you live kind of in the middle of it, bro.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I, I'm always like, oh, though, I don't want to hit him up for every single thing I read, but I pray for you a lot, man.

Gino Curcuruto:

I appreciate that.

Gino Curcuruto:

I will tell you that, you know, growing up in California and my family, most of my family and my wife's family being out there, Whenever it would snow on the East coast, my mom would call like, are you guys okay?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we start referring to snow as white death.

Gino Curcuruto:

Because anytime you get two inches in California, they're like, surely my grandkids are are troubled right now.

Gino Curcuruto:

So hey, that's appreciate the concern.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's even still out here's in Seattle.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's like even just the threat of it and all the schools are shut down.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes, everybody stays home.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Apparently the internet doesn't work anything . That's crazy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I don't know.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Hey, so just so, uh, the folks listen in tuning in, know a little bit, let's just, uh, kinda remind each other Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

How long we've known each other and how we actually met.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I, I don't remember the first time I met you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I can't remember.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I know like the era . Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But I don't know when or where.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Do you recall?

Gino Curcuruto:

I, I think that I probably first met you at a training in Tacoma.

Gino Curcuruto:

Okay.

Gino Curcuruto:

I think that I came out and that would've been like, Goodness.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's been about 15 plus years, I would say.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That'd be my guess.

Caesar Kalinowski:

At least.

Caesar Kalinowski:

At least.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It was probably a Soma school or something like that, maybe or something.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, I think so.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I remember we, we hit it off pretty quick and I got some chiropractic lessons from you, which that's freaking

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes, that's right.

Gino Curcuruto:

Freaking people out You are an amazing.

Gino Curcuruto:

Pupil for sure.

Gino Curcuruto:

. Caesar Kalinowski: I'm still using the skills brother.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, my daughter Justine says, uh, every time I'm like adjusting her, I, she says like, man, I've never ever had an adjustment, especially my neck like Gino did, sitting up in a chair.

Gino Curcuruto:

Even like, like when's he coming?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes.

Gino Curcuruto:

When's he coming to visit?

Gino Curcuruto:

. That's great.

Gino Curcuruto:

So if we get you out here in the next few months like we're talking, then uh, yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

My least Justine's gonna need a good,

Gino Curcuruto:

good old I'm in, I'm in for it adjustment.

Gino Curcuruto:

I still do it all the time.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, that's great.

Caesar Kalinowski:

A long time.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And your kids were little then?

Gino Curcuruto:

Man, man.

Gino Curcuruto:

They, they were, yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

They're out there like out in college and our youngest is 14, so yeah, it's been a, it's been a, I don't even know if Nate was born when you, when we met.

Gino Curcuruto:

I, I believe that he wasn't, Wow.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Since he's only 14.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know what's cool about this too?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Cuz the whole time I've known you, you've been a church planter, you've been a Disciple maker.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

and I and some people, as soon as we say the word church planting, they're like, tune out.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And it's like, mm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

The way we have always seen church planting is it's disciples making disciples.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And some people organize more people around that effort in their city or neighborhood and some just do it as a oikos, right?

Caesar Kalinowski:

In like their extended family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's all really the same, but some people's gifting or ambition or calling might say, Hey, we're gonna.

Caesar Kalinowski:

multiply these out citywide and start to train other leaders.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But, so I don't want anybody to get freaked out by church planning, but you've always been, that's been your.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Jam.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's been your focus just like ours.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I've loved watching you do it as you've raised the kids through all of those iterations of ages and stages and a million part-time jobs, both you and Jill and you know, yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

, all that stuff, no one can claim that like, well, it must be easy for you guys to make disciples cuz you got all day off

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

You know, you know, though, as I, I know I'm not on this podcast just to, to talk about like, you know, the things that I've learned from you.

Gino Curcuruto:

I don't, but I do want to say, You and, and our buddy Seth McBee, like my first experiences with you guys, you guys were living out something that I was longing for and didn't know how to articulate.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I do remember you and Tina taking me into your home because there was extra time before I had to fly home and, and I thought like, I gotta go back to the hotel and process all these things I'm thinking about and learning.

Gino Curcuruto:

And you're like, no, we're just gonna have a meal.

Gino Curcuruto:

You come over.

Gino Curcuruto:

We went, we tried to go to a movie.

Gino Curcuruto:

We couldn't get tickets cuz it was sold out.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we just watched a movie at your house.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean that was my first experience with you.

Gino Curcuruto:

And after that I thought there's actually people that just live this way.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's not just theoretical and it, it changed my life cuz I went back and said, I'm just gonna, I'm sold out for that cause I've seen it happen and I'm just gonna do it.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I think I'm just kind of naive enough to think.

Gino Curcuruto:

That I had the ability to

Caesar Kalinowski:

just be normal.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well, you, you, you certainly are, and I've hung out there in your part of the world a little bit, and you are normal, but you're also one of these guys a little bit like here for us, where, doesn't matter where you go, people are like, Hey Gino, what's happening?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Like, but that just shows you, you're living the life and your kids are engaged, come over, they're all at the table, they're making fun of everything.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, talking about music, laughing, doing their homework, crying, fighting, all this stuff.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's normal.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They engage.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's not like, where's the kids?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Oh, they're, they hide when we have people over.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Oh, living in community, huh?

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Anyway, so it's, it's really normal man.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's super normal.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

. I love it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now, um, as we kind of get rolling here today, what are some of the, in your life, I know you weren't like born into the church, like I kind of was born going to church forever, though.

Caesar Kalinowski:

There was no discipleship, and I've talked about that plenty on the show, but yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

What are some of the different types of.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Experiences of church that you've had over the years?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, as far as going to church, which, you know, we know you can't, but what are some of the different types of experiences you had?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, both just yourself, but then maybe even as a church planner?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And then maybe we'll talk a little bit about what you're doing today.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, let's do that.

Gino Curcuruto:

So, you know, the first thing that occurs to me is that my first encounter with Jesus was relationally through people that just cared for me, walked with me, even from a distance, but just shared life with me.

Gino Curcuruto:

And then when I come to faith, you know, whatever that.

Gino Curcuruto:

Is that we quantify and qualify.

Gino Curcuruto:

It was like, now you're expected to find a church.

Gino Curcuruto:

And it took me literally two years because I wanted nothing to do with the church.

Gino Curcuruto:

Cause I didn't know the culture, I didn't, wasn't gonna fit in.

Gino Curcuruto:

I just wanted to hang out with my friends and follow Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

And that was not an option where I live.

Gino Curcuruto:

That was not the culture.

Gino Curcuruto:

So I experienced kind of like the Sunday only.

Gino Curcuruto:

Thing where you just like sit in rows and you take in, and so then I became very particular about Bible study and it had to be like go verse by verse through the teaching.

Gino Curcuruto:

And that was my experience.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I thought this Christianity thing that started relationally is really just about what I know in my head.

Gino Curcuruto:

And so that was a lot of my experience in the church was, um, if you acquire knowledge, which is a good thing, but that's, that's the thing.

Gino Curcuruto:

So it was like this competition.

Gino Curcuruto:

To acquire the most knowledge, then you would be the most faithful follower and a leader.

Gino Curcuruto:

And so I could do that in my room at night.

Gino Curcuruto:

I could just read a book and there was something missing.

Gino Curcuruto:

There was like relationship around.

Gino Curcuruto:

But everything in those first few iterations for us.

Gino Curcuruto:

At least in my recollection was so head heavy.

Gino Curcuruto:

I was stressed, but I'm also like, I do good in academically.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

So it was easy in that sense.

Gino Curcuruto:

I was like this Jesus thing's.

Gino Curcuruto:

No, no problem.

Gino Curcuruto:

I'm learning

Caesar Kalinowski:

lots.

Caesar Kalinowski:

How did you do it?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Sword drills, bro.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Or were you too old for that when you came

Gino Curcuruto:

to faith?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, dude, I was too old for that.

Gino Curcuruto:

I didn't know.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I was like, wait, isn't the way of Jesus peaceful?

Gino Curcuruto:

Why are we always pulling out swords here when we're talking?

Gino Curcuruto:

I was very confused.

Gino Curcuruto:

I

Caesar Kalinowski:

have to just clarify cuz some of our listeners might not know what a sword drill is.

Caesar Kalinowski:

The word of God is like a sword.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So it's the word.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And we would have people.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, the, the teacher say, I'm in first grade, third grade, whatever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Stand up front and go, all right, first Chronicles two 18.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And if you could recite it gold and then if not, who could get to it first?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Cuz you knew where it was in the Bible.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You didn't have to go to the index first.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And they called them sword drills and you got points and you got sticky stars on your chart and talk about do to be ouch

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Man, I was so, so not enculturated into the church, you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

As a young kid into my twenties, even before I came to faith, that I remember the first time someone talked about a couple being unequally yoked.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

. And I said, what do eggs have to do with this conversation?

Caesar Kalinowski:

I literally said that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And everyone like looked at me like, dude, you just don't know any of the lingo so well, and that that is

Caesar Kalinowski:

in a rough ride that speaks back.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Backwards to why it is important to learn the word and teach the word, but what's the, what's the motive behind it and why?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And are we gonna live out the word or are we just gonna sword drill each other for points?

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

So I mean, from there other experiences were, uh, formed and shaped a lot by the proclamation of the word, from a pulpit on Sunday.

Gino Curcuruto:

Mm-hmm.

Gino Curcuruto:

. And then, hey, you know, we want relationships, so let's get together in someone's house and do more Bible study.

Gino Curcuruto:

on the weekdays, which isn't a bad thing, but what I, what I was being trained into and learning was in order to lead, the most important thing was that you could answer questions about the scriptures.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I wondered, when I saw the life of the disciples, I kept saying like, they look like they're.

Gino Curcuruto:

Moving around and doing things out of who they believe they are.

Gino Curcuruto:

Not just acquiring more knowledge and answering questions.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They're not turning it on and off.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They're still out doing their fishing or they're sewing and reaping or whatever they had to do to feed their kids and keep a roof over their head.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But yeah, they, they were, they was lifestyle.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know,

Gino Curcuruto:

and, and I'm at that point, I'm, I'm a business owner.

Gino Curcuruto:

I run a, I was running my.

Gino Curcuruto:

First chiropractic, actually my second chiropractic practice at the time, most of my life was not spent with Christians.

Gino Curcuruto:

Mm-hmm.

Gino Curcuruto:

, it was out in the world, if you will, and saying like, what is all of this knowledge acquisition?

Gino Curcuruto:

How does it help me when I'm caring for someone in my practice?

Gino Curcuruto:

Like if I, if, if this doesn't have real life implications mm-hmm.

Gino Curcuruto:

for me, I just don't know what to do with it.

Gino Curcuruto:

And it kind of brought me to a crisis where I was like, I really love Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

I'm kind of confused by the church and I just want this to be integrated.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And then you heard the story of God . Yes, exactly.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And the whole thing got grounded in normalcy and some food and maybe even a beer.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, like what the heck,

Gino Curcuruto:

you know, . Right, right.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean, it was, it was like probably.

Gino Curcuruto:

Four years later when what we started talking about by meeting you and, and kind of, I remember being like, I don't even know what the word is.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's just like, it hit me like a ton of bricks in the sense of all you have to do is live in light of your identity and show people what God is like.

Gino Curcuruto:

. Like that's, there's obviously like more background that's required of that, but I, I was just, I think that I, I was like, rain man, just repeating it over and over again.

Gino Curcuruto:

Like, show them what God's, like show them what, like, I've been longing for this, but I didn't know what that looked like in a church expression.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now the, let's jump ahead a little bit.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So you've been out in Philly Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Quote unquote, planting churches, communities.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Really?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

For a, a while now, and there've been some various iterations.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

, the name of your community is called The Table.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, table Philadelphia.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And, uh, there's been a few different iterations of that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And of course when the whole world changed and shut down for a while, that changed the rhythms as well.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But I know that, I think you had some of your biggest times of growth and effectiveness during that because of the way you lived in community.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's like, well, yes, programmatic shutdowns don't affect us that greatly cuz we're living this.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Great.

Caesar Kalinowski:

What are, what are you currently up to real quick, just, and I'm proud as heck of you brother, but uh, give us a little idea of what are, like, what's the community look like now and what.

Caesar Kalinowski:

family's engagement and all that.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

We, I mean, we say that we're a church of communities, so there, there's one big church universally, but the table, Philadelphia is one expression of the church made up of.

Gino Curcuruto:

Localized families on mission table, communities, we call 'em.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we have a number of those and we're looking to actually multiply again, um, looks like this year as we train up more leaders.

Gino Curcuruto:

So God is blessing the heck out of this.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, so we have communities that gather in homes and live life throughout the week in different parts of the city.

Gino Curcuruto:

And then a couple of times a month, we get all those communities reuniting, re we call it reunion.

Gino Curcuruto:

They come together.

Gino Curcuruto:

to, uh, celebrate what God's doing and share stories.

Gino Curcuruto:

Oh, and then throughout the rest of the time, they're finding local expressions of how are they engaging their neighbor neighbors, and what are the needs that they can be involved with.

Gino Curcuruto:

We're super decentralized, which is messy.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

But we also know that we're part of something bigger than just what's happening in our community.

Gino Curcuruto:

That's kind of our

Caesar Kalinowski:

structure.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well, you guys are definitely the living example.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Low control, but higher accountability.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Like you're all on the same mission.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

How are we doing?

Caesar Kalinowski:

But when it's all spread out like that, there's not a lot of control that really can, per se happen.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But I know that's not your heart either.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

The spirit of God's real and, and act.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Amen.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Admitting word is active and, and all that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now are, are you, uh, still using the term brunch church

Caesar Kalinowski:

in connection to any of this?

Gino Curcuruto:

With the pandemic, we had to, we were doing brunch church.

Gino Curcuruto:

That was kind of like our public gathering, if you will, but it's, it, brunch was designed to be, our brunch church was designed to be in smaller environments, right?

Gino Curcuruto:

We would have one community or maybe two that would have relationships with people and their, their network of relationships.

Gino Curcuruto:

That would come twice a month into a space, we'd share a meal and we'd share some, some stories of God and have conversations about it.

Gino Curcuruto:

It was really, really an inviting space for people.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, when we couldn't gather because of, um, COVID restrictions, we stopped that.

Gino Curcuruto:

And, um, we got into this habit of coming back into like, where are we gonna create brunch church?

Gino Curcuruto:

Because a lot of people hadn't experienced, it'd been two years, you know?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

That we, they hadn't experienced that.

Gino Curcuruto:

We had leaders that hadn't.

Gino Curcuruto:

Really been a part of that.

Gino Curcuruto:

And so we, we just made this shift, the, um, towards the fall last year of saying we're gonna have one large gathering that's brunch and one that's our reunion celebration.

Gino Curcuruto:

Those are our only all church gatherings each month.

Gino Curcuruto:

And we, uh, we are empowering our table communities to engage in their neighborhoods and reproduce localized brunch, church, dinner, church in the future.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we're kind of, Ima reimagining people to what the church.

Gino Curcuruto:

Could be

Caesar Kalinowski:

like, which is an ongoing thing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

As a family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Think about I, we always tell people like ask yourself,

Caesar Kalinowski:

what would a healthy family that has God as their daddy, Jesus is brother, what would they do?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I'm just guessing that the rhythms of Team Curcuruto are not the same as when you and Jill first got married and had one baby and couldn't sleep at night and all.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm guessing that the rhythms of your household are just different now.

Caesar Kalinowski:

18.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Plus years later, , you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Like family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They really are, right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

A family adjusts, a family includes more people and people are transient.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Come and go and, and there's all different levels of maturity and like, if everybody could hear that, that that's, that is such a picture of what life in a community that's growing and ongoing and morphing and changing and people are coming and going in and out of it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just like all your kids aren't sleeping under the same roof now.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Ah, crazy.

Gino Curcuruto:

Right, right.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

There's change.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean, there.

Gino Curcuruto:

There's so much that could be said about that.

Gino Curcuruto:

I, I think like just in our family, some of the really, like obvious changes, like you said, we have.

Gino Curcuruto:

Our oldest doesn't live with us anymore.

Gino Curcuruto:

She's away at college.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, she was sent out as a missionary though.

Gino Curcuruto:

She, uh, she has established community in her dorm rooms and with the people there and is still connected to us cuz she's not that far from the city.

Gino Curcuruto:

But just that the idea of people witnessing when one of our own goes out to another place, they're being sent as a missionary to build community because she's grown up in a family and a larger extended family.

Gino Curcuruto:

That's normal.

Gino Curcuruto:

and so she's a gatherer there and that's a beautiful thing.

Gino Curcuruto:

As a dad, it's an amazing thing.

Gino Curcuruto:

But just as a, as a church planter, you're like, man, love to see multiplication from the family that's

Gino Curcuruto:

. Caesar Kalinowski: Now, from your experience in all of this and all the different iterations, is there anything you've found that is perhaps maybe extra harder for pre churched people?

Gino Curcuruto:

In other words, people who've maybe been around church a little longer, harder for them to.

Gino Curcuruto:

Grasp about this lifestyle of discipleship and mission, and yet it's something that's pretty crucial, you know?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah,

Gino Curcuruto:

yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

I think that there's multiple ways of saying this, and I, I'm still kind of convinced that the language that I've learned from you is really helpful in this scenario and that it's like this idea of organized and organic.

Gino Curcuruto:

Life together in a sense.

Gino Curcuruto:

Like there needs to be like a framework and then something else that just spontaneously happens.

Gino Curcuruto:

Or there's the skeleton and the flesh in the sense of like how a structure is formed that many people come with ideas about what the church might look like or should look like.

Gino Curcuruto:

Mm-hmm.

Gino Curcuruto:

and they're not fully, um, aware that their own life has this organized and organic structure.

Gino Curcuruto:

They just might not be intentional about it.

Gino Curcuruto:

So the, the challenge is twofold.

Gino Curcuruto:

One, that people don't necessarily see that need, and the church isn't always explicit about naming it.

Gino Curcuruto:

And it's super helpful if we can use that language.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

To say we have organized structures, we have set meeting times for things, and then we also.

Gino Curcuruto:

Create margin for our life to engage with God as, as we see in the

Caesar Kalinowski:

organic things.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Why do you think it's important, Gino, that there's both, because I'm thinking as you're saying this, and I know we've talked about this and helped train this together with many Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, I, I can think of some of my own church experiences where it was like, yeah, 99% organized.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, but I've also known, yeah, I've also known believers, beautiful believers who it's a hundred percent organic.

Caesar Kalinowski:

There's nothing they ever do twice in a row.

Caesar Kalinowski:

There's no anything.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And like why do you, what?

Caesar Kalinowski:

What are you learning about the importance of both?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Such

Gino Curcuruto:

a good question.

Gino Curcuruto:

I think, um, I would use the example of our, of our church, the table of Philadelphia right now, if we just go by organized structures, here's all you all, the commitment is to following Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's four events a month.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean, sorry, six events a month.

Gino Curcuruto:

Cuz we have two Sunday gatherings and there's usually four like meals in, uh, a weekly meal in a house.

Gino Curcuruto:

But if that's what the church is, we've missed following Jesus.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, I'm saying that's necessary.

Gino Curcuruto:

but not sufficient.

Gino Curcuruto:

And also the, my own bend is, that's not super fun, man.

Gino Curcuruto:

I mean, those are great things, but there's so much more that's happening in your neighborhood or in your workplace or on your front porch that with people, if you're opened up to that.

Gino Curcuruto:

So we intentionally reduce the number of organized gatherings to make room for.

Gino Curcuruto:

Organic opportunities.

Gino Curcuruto:

We just have to train people to pay attention to those and engage them intentionally to be present and

Caesar Kalinowski:

to do that and, and not, does that make sense?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And not just the organics, I guess, between, uh, me and my neighbors, but also organics between the church family, the fact that I don't for sure, I just, I only see you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

These six times, and I don't make 'em all.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes, but I guess that's what I'm supposed to do.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm checking the box best I can and it basically, it's based on my own motivation, fear, love of self, whatever's going on, you know, but, but instead seeing these as times of reunion.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I love that, that you call it that, that it's like a family reunion.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We're getting together, we're having a family dinner night, and there's all kinds of, because of that, there's all these organic interactions that happen throughout our week and month, and they're not forced and they're not.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Expected to have everybody at 'em or they're a failure.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, like I see people do that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Oh yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We're starting to do this thing at the park and it's like, how many people come to that?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well, that's the thing, you know, only about a third of our people ever come out and, you know, play volleyball and grill out at the park.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm like, well, that's awesome, . Maybe they're you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's awesome.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Maybe they're busy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I don't.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Our family team K is very close.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We do lots of stuff together.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Guess what?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Not everything.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm taking my oldest, oldest grandson out just for him and I only tomorrow, all day.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Well, what about everybody else?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well, I'll see them Sunday , you know, I'll see them at a different time.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I think,

Gino Curcuruto:

so I think it's important.

Gino Curcuruto:

I'm sorry.

Gino Curcuruto:

I was just gonna say like, I think my short answer is it's important to have that language so people know what you're aiming for so that they experience more of this life together in, in, in the kingdom.

Gino Curcuruto:

So if it's, if it's only.

Gino Curcuruto:

Church is only the organized things we're missing.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's a program then.

Gino Curcuruto:

And if we do, it's a program.

Gino Curcuruto:

And if we say it's only the organic, I think it's not reproducible.

Gino Curcuruto:

Right.

Gino Curcuruto:

Probably not Producing maturity here you're leaning on people's talent.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

You and you're leaning on someone's talent.

Gino Curcuruto:

So what I, I, and so will, people will see that I'm, I engage with people.

Gino Curcuruto:

organically.

Gino Curcuruto:

Pretty much like you said, everywhere I go, it seems like I get to know people, they get to know me, and if you follow me around and think that that's what it takes to be a Disciple, like you have to be like me, you're missing the point.

Gino Curcuruto:

Like there's environments where you have those relationships, but that comes from also, I have a team that's with me.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

I know people because my team of Team C, you know, and our whole community helps me to learn other people and we, we spend time together.

Gino Curcuruto:

In organized fashions, praying and discerning.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's interesting to me as I've watched over the years, cuz I have also found this concept, this language, however it's framed so helpful and free.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It sort of freeing sets us free.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But I've noticed that it takes very few organized activities as the, as a family to lead to healthy organic rhythms that naturally occurr.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And those organics then, because you're doing life on life together, oftentimes lead back to sort of like micro organize things, for instance.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

For instance, you are hanging out locally, maybe having a cigar at the local cigar shop as I know you are.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yep.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Prone to do and I've done with you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And it's not that organized.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's not the exact same time of the thing or whatever, but you get to meet some guys and next thing you know, it's like, , this seems to work on Wednesdays.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Can you guys, let's start trying to do that Wednesday

Caesar Kalinowski:

and all of a sudden it's a little more organized and or mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

, some of these people start asking all kinds of questions about faith and you go, Well, why don't we, why don't we start getting together and, uh, studying this together or whatever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now the whole church has to do it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

No, they don't.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Just, these guys are right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's what God's brought this little, you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well, my wife really has been asking me a whole ton about this.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Why don't you start coming to our

Caesar Kalinowski:

family dinner night Then, you know, so it's like the organized leads to organics and the organics can lead to these, I call 'em like micro organized and it's, yes, it's really cool, I think And very natural.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And, and I think people get it once they.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They have it explained and they experience it a little bit.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They go, that's kinda how my normal life is.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm like, yeah,

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Gino Curcuruto: Yeah, exactly.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Isn't that amazing being normal?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's cool.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now, what are some examples currently, uh, today for the organized side of your life?

Caesar Kalinowski:

I guess you just said it's really, it's the two Sunday reunions and then you have a weekly family internet as a community.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Any other organized things that are going on either for some or for most of the community.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, we have someone that's pretty new to Faith, I would say.

Gino Curcuruto:

She just came to Faith recently and one of the things that we discerned as a community, She really wanted to know more of, um, how to read the scriptures, which, you know, isn't, isn't like I'm not starting a Bible study and inviting my neighbors into it unless that's what my neighbors are interested in, right?

Gino Curcuruto:

So this is one season where we started working through the Gospel of Mark together.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, and we have an organized, uh, event and not everyone in our community participates in, but we're finding it to be really, really a blessing to us.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, I have organized rhythm.

Gino Curcuruto:

of things that I do in my neighborhood.

Gino Curcuruto:

There's, there's certain places that I go on certain times.

Gino Curcuruto:

Mm-hmm.

Gino Curcuruto:

and I invite other people.

Gino Curcuruto:

I get together with a couple of guys in our community on, oh, every week in a coffee shop.

Gino Curcuruto:

. I have a, I'm part of a running group with people that are experiencing homelessness.

Gino Curcuruto:

Um, they live in like transitional housing in my neighborhood, and I run with them every Friday morning at five 30, which is kind of crazy, but it's really cold right now here in Philadelphia, we still do it.

Gino Curcuruto:

So those things help me develop new relationships that l.

Gino Curcuruto:

, they start this, this organic opportunities where we say like, Hey, you guys like to eat?

Gino Curcuruto:

How about you come over for a meal sometime?

Gino Curcuruto:

Great, let's do that.

Gino Curcuruto:

They're not saying no, they're not saying no to that, you know, most of the time.

Gino Curcuruto:

So as the every, everyone, one of the things that I'd really want to communicate is that we've, we've equipped and trained all of our leadership teams of these different communities to find what are their organized and organic.

Gino Curcuruto:

Opportunities And, and, and so we, we say, here's the map, the playbook, if you will, gather around a meal every week and pray and listen to each other and to God, and then find what are the opportunities that you need to build out relationally.

Gino Curcuruto:

So one community has relationships with people that have nothing to do with Jesus, but really, , those nerdy board games, and they like nerdy board games.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

So they've started now in an organized two times a month nerdy board game night and that's, that came out of their organic relationships.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Just like you said, these micro organized things.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We, we also have organized things, Gino, just as I'm thinking through what you're saying, that aren't like weekly or monthly, cuz I think right away, right our default.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Especially cuz you know, church is every Sunday it's like, this is how you do it every Wednesday night and whatever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But we have organized things that are.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Maybe once a year or twice a year, for instance, going through the story of God with LA Peace and people that are coming under maturities.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So now they're helping to teach through the story and we try to, we love doing that if we can a couple times a year cuz there's just a lot of new People of Peace floating around.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And so that's kind of organized, but they're, again, it comes, it very much comes out of our organic relationships of open table dinner.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Family dinner nights.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, we do driveway, happy hour, we do happy hours, you know, at the house.

Caesar Kalinowski:

All these things that then all of a sudden these people have been asking so many questions like, why don't we do this story?

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, they're like, wow, that's such a crazy thing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I've never heard of it that way.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, I grew up going to church, but it was always like this and sword drills, and I didn't

Caesar Kalinowski:

know what I was doing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And to be honest with you, I couldn't explain it to my kids or anybody.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I just don't, I don't even try.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Let's give it a shot.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And after one round of story, story one, they're always like, dunk, I'm in Ah, hooked.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, like, so yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So there are, I want, you know, I want to help people think too organized and organic is, uh, is flexible.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's real flexible and it changes maybe seasonally Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And seasons of life, and as the community shifts and morphs and grows and all that stuff.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, we, that's a, that's a really good point is that it doesn't, it's not always weekly.

Gino Curcuruto:

It could be annually, it could be seasonally.

Gino Curcuruto:

We, we have, um, fire pits.

Gino Curcuruto:

We have a backyard in our, hard to believe Your last house was about such

Caesar Kalinowski:

a rare one square meter, but a really long strip.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, yeah, I tried to do a fire pit there and almost set the power lines on fire.

Gino Curcuruto:

That was not a good idea and I'm pretty sure it was illegal, so you should edit that out.

Gino Curcuruto:

But, um, our new place, we have a small patch of grass and we have neighbors and friends over there.

Gino Curcuruto:

It's a little cold here for that right now, so we're not doing that.

Gino Curcuruto:

But that was something we were doing once a month.

Gino Curcuruto:

and just developing relationships, um, as the church.

Gino Curcuruto:

One other thing that we have that's an organized activity that I participated in is every other month we get all of our community leaders and teams and it's open to everyone.

Gino Curcuruto:

And we do a workshop, a training with a dialogue and conversation.

Gino Curcuruto:

What are you seeing?

Gino Curcuruto:

What are the challenges?

Gino Curcuruto:

What are your ideas?

Gino Curcuruto:

Where are you seeing God at work?

Gino Curcuruto:

And that just.

Gino Curcuruto:

Kind of funds the imagination collectively for how to, how to participate

Caesar Kalinowski:

in this work.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm big on equipping.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So once there's a need, I like really getting into an organized rhythm of equipping.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So like, here's the calendar way out so you can kind of plan around it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You're leaning in, you're wanting to lead your family, your oikos, your neighborhood on mission.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Make disciples, we're gonna equip you with some intention.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And here's what it'll look.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We're not doing it on Christmas week and we're not gonna probably do it in July.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, everybody's not thinking, but there'll be some organization around that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Now, when, when the oikos is small and just getting started, that's probably not necessary cuz you're, you're all just learning and walking and growing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But as you start having people and couples that are ready to time to be getting ready to send them out or they've already said, I have to, I got too many neighbors in flow, but I don't know this and I don't, my fluency and the gospel's not that great yet and all that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So we're, we're big on that being organized.

Caesar Kalinowski:

A rhythm as well.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But then as I say that, , I think about all the times of leadership development, quote unquote, which is really just discipleship.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Further up the slope of how many times really meaningful things have occurred in leadership development, where a hundred percent organic.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They just, they just were.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yep.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yep.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I had a, you know, I had Yep.

Caesar Kalinowski:

To get my deck stripped and then repainted and a bunch of guys wanted to hang out.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Hey, what are you doing Saturday?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Could you help me out And Sure.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I'll make sure we got, you know, food and beverages and they come over and it ends up being some of the best training we've ever done.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And the deck looks amazing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

, you know, and it got done in like four hours.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Instead of taking me four Saturdays, he's like, oh, this is good news,

Caesar Kalinowski:

. Gino Curcuruto: Right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I think, uh, I think about trying to create spaces that are intentional for training, but also knowing that there's gonna be opportunities for that equipping in everyday life if you get to be with people for Yeah, because of who we are and how we

Caesar Kalinowski:

live our lives.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So let me just ask you here, uh, what do you more naturally lean toward?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Organized or organic?

Caesar Kalinowski:

and

Gino Curcuruto:

I, I think I'm about organic all day long, you know, because my upbringing, where I'm from, who I'm from, I just, I don't like a schedule.

Gino Curcuruto:

I need a schedule cuz I'm disorganized, but I, I like to just be present with people.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

And kind of that idea to me sounds amazing.

Gino Curcuruto:

And then here's the, the thing that I run into is, I think I kind of said it earlier, um, I don't know how to reproduce that.

Gino Curcuruto:

If I just say, come follow me.

Gino Curcuruto:

Sometimes people are like, but I don't like the things you like, you know, I don't want to have a cigar.

Gino Curcuruto:

I don't know, is this not possible?

Gino Curcuruto:

Like, and they need or tell me the basic structure so I can know that I'm doing this.

Gino Curcuruto:

So I've found challenges.

Gino Curcuruto:

With my personal preference

Caesar Kalinowski:

towards both, and that's why we need both.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We really need both.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I think it's just a matter of awareness.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes, some people, if you have one preference or the other, you think, oh wow, that person's just not organized enough.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Or This person's real, real, they're way too rigid.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Why don't they just loosen up?

Caesar Kalinowski:

We really do need both and we need to honor both, and I think we, we get to grow in both.

Caesar Kalinowski:

If you're a person who looks at your life spiritually, Or as a leader, say you're leading a church or maybe small group leader, or you lead all of discipleship in your church, whatever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And you really look at like, okay, what's the output?

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

For my efforts, it's all organized.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Then you, you might wanna say, okay, yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

A how do I grow in the organic is, you know, am I protecting my, my schedule and time and preference is too hard.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Um, and is there, who in the community seems to be all about organics and they're, they're just like a party waiting happen, and how do we par better partner?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And give them permission to organize us.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, into organics.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Like I remember one time we, yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, when we were living in New York, yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Our community was doing great and we wanted to see greater organic interaction.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So we used a slight organized tool and we just got on like a WhatsApp type of tool, you know, a little group texting sort of tool.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And here's what we covenanted.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We just agreed, we said, Anything you're doing that's like, not work or you know, the marriage bed or whatever, you know, like anything you're just going out to do, just hit the group up and say, Hey, I'm thinking about going over to this deli tonight.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And then there's gonna be a show in the park.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Or a friend of mine from work has got two pieces in a local art.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Exhibit and I just want to go and see 'em.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Or my, my one's single mom's kids are gonna be in this softball thing, but they don't have any friends really, or parents around or family around.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Anybody want to come and scream their head off with me, you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And so we just started putting everything in the app and anybody

Caesar Kalinowski:

who could yeah, make it would, but not everybody made anything, and there was no

Caesar Kalinowski:

expectation that you were supposed to.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And, but it, what it did was it kind of raised that water level, right?

Caesar Kalinowski:

So that little bit of a commitment and that organization to say, I love you enough to let you know I'm going to a movie tonight.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Anybody wanna go see the new Mission Impossible or whatever, you know, like, you know, and I love you enough to do that,

Caesar Kalinowski:

but if no one makes it, I'm, I don't have a chip, I'm not getting upset.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm like, not.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, and it raised that water level.

Caesar Kalinowski:

and pretty soon people were saying things like, this is really like my family and my friends are wanting in , so can we organize a special night?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Mm-hmm.

Caesar Kalinowski:

like an open table where we're not praying for each other or doing equipping or training just so we can be with them like, heck yeah, we can get to you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Do it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Go for it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You wanna do it your place.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You know, like and, and on it went.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So you can see this push and pull between the two and what both are needed, but I think the awareness of what's your preference.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And then pray and ask God to help you grow in and find others who are strong in the other . You know?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

I wanna run something by you and get your input on this, cuz I think I have noticed that one reason it's really helpful to have a planned out.

Gino Curcuruto:

Organized activity beyond what we've already talked about is introducing new people into community life.

Gino Curcuruto:

It is not an unfair question for someone to say, what do you expect of me to participate in this?

Gino Curcuruto:

Particularly if, if they're not as accustomed Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

To this kind of lifestyle.

Gino Curcuruto:

Right.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I want to say, Well, Jesus says, you know, he wants your entire life, but I, but that's not like, you know, I, I don't, it's not, that's not the, the best way to meet people where they are a lot of times.

Gino Curcuruto:

So if you just say, we're gonna do life together or share life, like pretty nebulous too, to just weird or whatever, or like, I'm too, yeah, I'm too busy.

Gino Curcuruto:

I can't commit to that.

Gino Curcuruto:

So, but if you say like, Hey, we gather on Thursday nights for a meal and then out of that we find ways that we can connect with each other and we use this group texting app to let people know when we're driving to the grocery store if you need something, like things spontaneously happen.

Gino Curcuruto:

People are like, I can commit to that.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I think that once I find people committing to that, the spirit of God moves them into the deeper life together.

Gino Curcuruto:

Almost always it's just like, yeah, I want community and I want to share these commitments and I want more of this.

Gino Curcuruto:

But it's a hard sell.

Gino Curcuruto:

If you don't have a plan.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It really is because the, the darkness of all, what do you, what do you mean by this whole life together?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's why everybody says, oh, I'm just too busy.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's like, no, you're not really, you're doing everything we're talking about.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Um, right.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And long ago someone gave me this phrase, they said, the ignorance breeds fear.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Not ignorance, like stupidity, but like ignorance, meaning I don't understand.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Right breeds fear.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And they really don't even have the language to try to dig out.

Caesar Kalinowski:

In fact, I don't know if I have the language to try to dig out all of the organics of nuance and life on life and driven by the spirit.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That happens.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But like you said, if you go like, well, we try to have weekly family dinner with each other and we come together sometimes, uh, in a rhythm to celebrate and hang out, study the word of God, and then everything else sort of is like we're trying to be like a family and increasing.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Like you said, and maybe we use this to let each other know what's up and people are like, thank you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, no, no ignorance.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So I don't, I don't fear that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And I think that's, boy Gino, you've nailed something there because I think a big part of why people fear discipleship as a lifestyle on a mission versus 12 week course or nine week course or whatever Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Is because of that.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Caesar Kalinowski:

When you say, yeah, well how do you guys make disciples?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Well we, we think we do it like Jesus did and it's in all of life and it's like lifestyle and through relationship that is so blurry.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yes, that those handles of a few organized things help them understand, cause I think they all desire the organics.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But they don't know what they're signing up for.

Caesar Kalinowski:

, you know?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

I have a friend who was interested in this, you know, faithful follower of Jesus, didn't have a an A framework for this.

Gino Curcuruto:

And he asked me straight up, cuz he was like a busy person.

Gino Curcuruto:

He's like, what is it gonna require of me?

Gino Curcuruto:

And I said, well you know your whole life cuz we're friends like that.

Gino Curcuruto:

And I kind of joked and I said, I'm asking you to meet, I think it was Wednesday nights for meals.

Gino Curcuruto:

Once a month we're gonna throw a party and you can come with the neighbors.

Gino Curcuruto:

Cuz I'm starting to get to know some of our neighbors.

Gino Curcuruto:

and he's like, okay, I think I, I can't commit to anything more than that.

Gino Curcuruto:

It wasn't three months into this.

Gino Curcuruto:

I told him, you know, there's gonna be a time when we're gonna probably want to discern, like, how are we responding to things?

Gino Curcuruto:

What are the next, what are those micro uh, organized activities that develop?

Gino Curcuruto:

And it was our first party.

Gino Curcuruto:

The next day he called me up and he said, I need to meet with you Monday, and we need to debrief on what happened because I have so many questions, like I said, but I thought you didn't.

Gino Curcuruto:

I, I thought you didn't have time for this.

Gino Curcuruto:

Right?

Gino Curcuruto:

And so what I'm saying is, Adults learn on a need to know basis and when they feel like they need to know, they're definitely interested.

Gino Curcuruto:

And we just need to give room for that.

Gino Curcuruto:

Give them, give them a framework, give them commitments that they can, they can start with, don't make it nebulous, and then trust God to continue to grow us in these organic and more micro organized things.

Gino Curcuruto:

It just happens.

Gino Curcuruto:

It works that

Caesar Kalinowski:

way.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, I agree.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Gino, I could keep talking to you for hours, but I do this instead.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We'll wrap up this point now.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm gonna get into the big three.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Uh, that'll be hard for me to distill some of this goodness down into three takeaways.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But how about you and I come back, uh, together and talk about a few other things that are on our hearts, uh, in the weeks ahead?

Caesar Kalinowski:

Okay.

Gino Curcuruto:

I would love to do that with you, brother.

Gino Curcuruto:

All

Caesar Kalinowski:

right, brother, brother.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I can't wait.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Thanks, man.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I love you, brother.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Yeah, love you.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I love that guy, man.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So humble and smart and a lot of fun to do life and mission with.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We've had so much fun together over the years, coaching and training people.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Thanks again, Gino.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Hey, and remember I'm launching that new coaching experience where I'm gonna personally help you establish foundations and a full framework for discipleship.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And do this as a family and as a church.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Give you all the tools to.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And my goal is to help 20 people with this in the months ahead.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So if you'd like helping any of those areas, drop me an email.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's Caesar everyday.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Disciple dot com, that's C A E S A R everyday Disciple dot com.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And again, the awesome 20 people.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's who we're looking to do this with that do join me by, before the end of the month are gonna get some amazing bonus experiences to go along with this.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Never done this before in exactly this way.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm really excited.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So, but now as always, let me leave you with the big three takeaways from today's topic.

Caesar Kalinowski:

If nothing else, you're not gonna wanna miss these.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It's kind of hard to boil

Announcer:

this down to just three.

Announcer:

What a great talk with Gino.

Announcer:

But I have, I think, and you can get a printable

Caesar Kalinowski:

PDF of this week's big three as a free download by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three b i G three.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Okay, so here's the big three for this week.

Caesar Kalinowski:

number one, our ministry rhythms need to be both organized and organic.

Caesar Kalinowski:

When we think about our family lives together, we don't count up the number of events per week that we attend and then take attendance now.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We live with them.

Caesar Kalinowski:

They're our family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

There's a fabric to our life together that cannot be reduced to just a series of events.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And the church is a family and a healthy family has both organized and organic rhythms to it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Keep thinking through.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Number two, ministry and discipleship cannot be merely a series of events on a calendar.

Caesar Kalinowski:

If all we have are organized events, then all we offer people is a program.

Caesar Kalinowski:

No one's looking for a program to sign up for, I promise.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But on the other hand, if all we do in our Disciple making is organic and rarely organized or predictable, it's hard for people to know what it is you're asking them to commit to or how it'll begin to affect and shape their lives.

Caesar Kalinowski:

So help folks understand the true nature of God's family and a life of walking in the ways of Jesus with you, by letting him know the commitment to these types of organized things.

Caesar Kalinowski:

But we're hoping it's gonna lead to these types of organic things.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And number three, structuring your Missional.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Community, like a family that has both organized and organic rhythms takes into account the needs of.

Caesar Kalinowski:

A few organized family rhythms will perpetuate and facilitate numerous organic opportunities to be a family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's what we all want.

Caesar Kalinowski:

We don't want, um, just a meeting or a group we see once a month or whatever.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It'll help us to create these opportunities to you family.

Caesar Kalinowski:

And do a lot of normal life stuff together.

Caesar Kalinowski:

It only takes a few organized things and lead to all the rest.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Keep asking yourself, what would a healthy family that has God as their dad and Jesus as their brother be doing together?

Caesar Kalinowski:

That's pretty cool, huh?

Caesar Kalinowski:

And it's pretty simple.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I hope you'll join me next week when I introduce you to another family who's making disciples both in their neighborhood and as they lead a more traditional church toward Missional living.

Caesar Kalinowski:

The things they're learning will be a real encouragement to you on your journey.

Caesar Kalinowski:

You're gonna love it.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'm pretty certain.

Caesar Kalinowski:

Okay.

Caesar Kalinowski:

I'll talk to you soon.

Announcer:

Thanks for joining us today.

Announcer:

For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com and remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.