Choosing Connection Over Conflict
It happens over and over again: a political argument with a friend, a fight about racial issues on the internet, a disagreement with a coworker… At the first sign of conflict, we flee to a bunker with people who think like us and—internally or externally—attack everyone else. We feel safe there. But it’s killing us; killing families, friendships, civility, and discourse.
This week on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, we talk with author Brian Jennings and discover there is a better way—and we can walk in it! It may look like you’re dodging cultural landmines, but you just might be learning how to dance! 😀
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- The “thing behind the thing” with all the conflict we see in ideology today.
- How Jesus faced personal, political, and relational conflict–and dealt with it.
- How to practice “The 4 Ways of Wisdom” in our conversations and conflicts.
- Practical steps you can take now to be Good News within dark conversations.
From this episode:
“Engage before you contend. Get involved in the issues you care about and engage those involved and affected by the issue before you try and win every argument connected to this topic. Practice gracious restraint.”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
You can find Brian Jennings’ books and blog at dancinginnomansland.com
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Go here for more info and to see if coaching is a good fit for you.
Transcript
It happens over and over again, a political argument with a friend, or a fight about racial issues on the internet, lots of those, a disagreement with a coworker.
Caesar Kalinowski:At the first sign of conflict though, we flee to a bunker with people who think like us, we always find that person who will agree with us, and then we sort of attack everyone else.
Caesar Kalinowski:We feel safe there, but it's killing us, it's killing our families, our friendships, our civility.
Caesar Kalinowski:Our discourse, some people say it's killing our nation.
Caesar Kalinowski:Our fractured world desperately needs a different way.
Caesar Kalinowski:People who will speak gently, value truth, think clearly.
Caesar Kalinowski:On today's episode, we're going to talk with author Brian Jennings and discover there is a better way and we can walk in it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It may look like you're dodging cultural landmines.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you might just be learning how to dance.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, today we've got a special guest with us.
Heath Hollensbe:I instantly fell in love with Brian.
Heath Hollensbe:We actually got a message from him saying, Hey, I'll listen to your podcast.
Heath Hollensbe:Fell in love with it.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm an author and a pastor.
Heath Hollensbe:Love to send you a copy of my book if, if you're interested and I read it and it was mind blowing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for sucking up the copy of the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're like, you're blowing me up on text.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're blowing me up.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, so what, like what's, what was giant nugget that just dropped on your heart?
Heath Hollensbe:I, just the conviction of if I'm a follower of Jesus and I'm called to be a peacemaker, how often follower, people who claim to be followers of Jesus are actually more peace breakers, uh, and not peacemakers.
Heath Hollensbe:And that to me was just.
Heath Hollensbe:Man, it was so good.
Caesar Kalinowski:I can't wait to meet him.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes, and I you know, I'm gonna be honest just up front So our listeners know he's totally selfishly kept the book to himself And just recently I read it and said I'm putting this guy on like we're like right in the episode I'm not even like you don't even have to agree.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, he's the best.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, all right, we're doing it So I'm gonna be learning to with everybody else and I'll you know Just kind of listen and ask my questions as we go.
Caesar Kalinowski:But yeah, man, I am I'm ready for this.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay, so for those who don't know, Brian is a pastor and an author who lives in Tulsa with his wife, Beth, and their four children.
Heath Hollensbe:He preaches at Highland Park Christian Church, and he serves on the board of directors for Black Box International, which is held for trafficked boys, and also Ozark Christian College.
Heath Hollensbe:And, uh, we'll get some information Big, big pedigree
Brian Jennings:there,
Heath Hollensbe:huh, Brian?
Heath Hollensbe:Yes.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay, man.
Heath Hollensbe:So, Brian, thanks for being with us today.
Brian Jennings:Absolutely, thank you guys so much for having me.
Heath Hollensbe:Alright, so, uh, I just finished reading your book, Dancing in No Man's Land, and the subtitle, Moving with Peace and Truth in a Hostile World, and it was absolutely incredible.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm not joking when I say every single page had some sort of highlighting or notes written through it.
Heath Hollensbe:Keith was
Caesar Kalinowski:blowing me up on texts, and like, read this,
Heath Hollensbe:you know, like, I'd like to.
Heath Hollensbe:You're still not getting a copy.
Heath Hollensbe:The premise of the book was that, uh, our fractured world really does desperately need a different way.
Heath Hollensbe:People who speak gently, and people who value truth, and people who think clearly.
Heath Hollensbe:and how, how we speak about truth and peace in the midst of this war.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, Brian, would you give us a little bit of a background as to why you wrote this book, as well as what you were hoping to accomplish with it?
Heath Hollensbe:And then, specifically, maybe answer the question, what is No Man's Land?
Brian Jennings:I wasn't planning to write a book, and about five and a half years ago, like every, like three things happened in the span of one week.
Brian Jennings:And the, the first was I had just been reading through a World War I book, um, And I don't remember what it was, but it was a biography and I like to read biographies and I, it just struck me how terrible the, the trench and bunker warfare was, people in these, these trenches and there's rats and disease and just.
Brian Jennings:Dead bodies is awful.
Brian Jennings:And you couldn't even look over the side because you would be killed likely if you did.
Brian Jennings:And so you had these two opposing bunkers and it stalemated the whole war.
Brian Jennings:Nobody was moving any direction.
Brian Jennings:And that area in between the two bunkers was called no man's land because it's the last place in the world you would want to be.
Brian Jennings:Barbed wire and exposed land and, and you probably weren't gonna, gonna get out alive from there.
Brian Jennings:So I was reading that, that same week was maybe round two of our country hotly debating the Affordable Care Act.
Brian Jennings:I can't remember what was happening in Congress, but something was happening.
Brian Jennings:And so everybody was just kind of ripping each other on that one and I had a, I had Christian friends tell me, say, Brian, if you do not support this act, then you hate the poor, they use that kind of language.
Brian Jennings:And I also had Christian friends say, Brian, if you support the Affordable Care Act, then you hate our country because it's going to be really bad for us economically.
Brian Jennings:And I remember, Just hearing from two different people and not even responding, but just thinking, like, they're both in different bunkers shooting each other.
Brian Jennings:And I kind of feel somewhere in between, like, I don't want to hate somebody.
Brian Jennings:Based on this political decision.
Brian Jennings:So at the, at the same time, just devotionally, I'd been going through the book of Daniel by myself and reading it in the mornings.
Brian Jennings:And, um, I was going through just chapter one in Daniel and Daniel is told by the king, like really the king's hit man goes out and says, Hey, all the wise men are going to die.
Brian Jennings:And thinking of all the responses and normal human being would have, especially the kind of person Daniel was, but at chapter 1, verse 14, it says he responded with wisdom and tact.
Brian Jennings:And it's, it was one of those times where I just put my Bible down and like walked around and thought about it.
Brian Jennings:It just like really jumped off the pages to me and I was, and I thought, whoa, Daniel is actually living in no man's land here.
Brian Jennings:He, he doesn't like take a side and doesn't declare war on somebody.
Brian Jennings:And as you read the rest of the story, it actually worked.
Brian Jennings:Um, he actually ends up being able to communicate truth because he first approached with peace.
Brian Jennings:And that just struck me.
Brian Jennings:I thought, man, who is doing that?
Brian Jennings:So that launched me on kind of this exploration of scripture and history of trying to find who are people that refuse to drop Either the pursuit of truth or or, and the pursuit of peace.
Brian Jennings:It seems like churches sometimes have dropped the pursuit of truth, so they end up, you know, preaching a really watered down gospel and it seems like other churches have dropped.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's another form of no man's land, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's another form.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:And, and so I just like, man, God calls us to pursue peace and he calls us to pursue truth at the same time.
Brian Jennings:And so I just wanted to find out what that looked like.
Brian Jennings:And God impressed upon me to start writing, uh, and just to be a good steward of that idea.
Brian Jennings:And that metaphor has really helped me.
Brian Jennings:I, I see that metaphor all the time.
Brian Jennings:So that's kind of what, what led to the whole thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's strong.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, what comes to mind when you're saying that, Brian, is I once had a really good mentor in my life and he was doing a little counseling with me and my leadership and ministry and all.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I have, I'm, I'm the guilty guy in this story so far.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he said to me, Caesar, can, can there be two opinions in the, in the room at the same time?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I was just like, uh, next, you know, uh, yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then, you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:It stuck to me, Brian.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it stuck to me.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like when I'm getting a little too strong and a little too winning, I got to win, you know, like I got, I'm not even, it's not even the issue anymore.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's me winning kind of thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, can there be a second opinion?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, does there get to be?
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:And so practically speaking, you know, that means that I can firmly believe that Jesus is the way of salvation.
Brian Jennings:But at the same time, I can act, I can actively love my Hindu neighbor who doesn't believe that.
Brian Jennings:Like, I can do both things at once.
Brian Jennings:I don't have to only do one or the other.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:And they're just a, you know, there's a tons of, tons of application for that.
Heath Hollensbe:Amen.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, one of, uh, one of my favorite lines in the book was when you're kind of getting to this premise of, you asked, we have to ask ourselves, what are the concerns of Jesus?
Heath Hollensbe:He said he came to seek and to save the lost.
Heath Hollensbe:And when you're locked in a clear kingdom minded vision, why would you ever engage in foolish controversy and trivial arguments?
Heath Hollensbe:And, uh, I relate a lot with what you said.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, you have two people that claim to be following the same Jesus that we are, we're each following, and yet they have very polarizing views and actually are willing to say that if you Side with somebody other that you are hateful towards one group And I love that this question actually locked in and said like what were the concerns of Jesus?
Heath Hollensbe:And it seems like shouldn't
Caesar Kalinowski:that be
Heath Hollensbe:our snapline?
Heath Hollensbe:Should we be coming back to what?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, like always going back to Jesus, right?
Heath Hollensbe:What was he about
Caesar Kalinowski:and that's what we're about now.
Heath Hollensbe:But it seems like when you talk about like why would you ever engage in foolish controversy and trivial arguments seems like that's What's keeping most of our social media alive these days or even the news stations, correct?
Brian Jennings:Yeah, social media does not encourage discernment, does not encourage peace.
Brian Jennings:I actually have a good buddy who works for a big tech company and he, he tells me, yeah, social media is not your friend.
Brian Jennings:You know, they're not, they are set up to make money and they know how to, you know, they know how to do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why we need is
Brian Jennings:from some filters before we.
Brian Jennings:before we post, before we launch into an attack.
Brian Jennings:And I mean, I think just some of those things of, you know, what does Jesus care about this topic?
Brian Jennings:Should I care about it?
Brian Jennings:Do I know anything about this topic?
Brian Jennings:And if I know it, what should my tone be?
Brian Jennings:Should this be said in person?
Brian Jennings:There's all these filters that we ought to be running through before we Post something, and when we skip those, we, we kind of blow things up a lot.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, it reminds me too of a book that I had recently read by, uh, Conrad, I don't, I butcher his last name, Gemphie, I think it is.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, and the book was called Jesus Asked, and it was a study on how most of Jesus responses when people were trying to pin him in a certain corner, was that he would ask yet another question.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, like, good teacher, what must I do to be saved?
Heath Hollensbe:And he would flip it to like, well, Is there anyone good?
Heath Hollensbe:And he never really came out swing.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, he did occasionally, but a lot of questions were asked by him.
Heath Hollensbe:And maybe that's a helpful way to approach some of these situations.
Caesar Kalinowski:People take questions often though as a poke in the chest, especially if it's got the word why in the front of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, yeah.
Brian Jennings:Yeah, but sometimes on social media though, you can see a person who does ask a question and you realize, Oh, I think they're, I think they're genuine in that, but they almost have to reassure the person, Hey, I really want to know.
Brian Jennings:Um, so, and that maybe takes the steam out of it sometimes, but.
Caesar Kalinowski:But that takes a lot of humility to even ask the question with a whole bunch of prefacing so people don't lose their mind and, you know, and pile on.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you saw, something else you said, Brian, was, really stuck to me there.
Caesar Kalinowski:You said, like, ask yourself, like, do I really, what do I really know about this particular topic?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Before I, you know, launch off, you know, cannons on people and, and then if I do know a lot about it, what should be my tone?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, I think about it like people I know that are really do know a lot about something.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're generally really gentle about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, we had Catherine Hayhoe on the show a couple of times.
Caesar Kalinowski:World renowned climate scientist.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I heard that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And she is like literally a climate scientist and, you know, uh, you know, to the stars and wonderful.
Caesar Kalinowski:And she's just so gentle and easy about it and, you know, there's, she's not in a rush to win.
Caesar Kalinowski:She's just right, you know, or smart, I guess, let's just say that because not everybody agrees with her, you know, but she's, she doesn't.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's just, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Caesar Kalinowski:That, that is a good check in my spirit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, how much do I really know?
Caesar Kalinowski:And if I do feel like I know a lot, then what should be my tone with that?
Brian Jennings:Right.
Brian Jennings:There's a book called, uh, Mending the Divide.
Brian Jennings:I don't know if you guys have read that.
Brian Jennings:Um, heard of it.
Brian Jennings:It's fantastic.
Brian Jennings:But one of the, the principles of the book is to, uh, engage before you contend.
Brian Jennings:And I will, I think I'll always remember that.
Brian Jennings:So in other words, before you contend for some point or some argument, you engage with the people and with the information first.
Brian Jennings:And so we, I've actually been in this, uh, season.
Brian Jennings:of engaging with immigration issues by reading, by talking, visiting, learning, because I was, I was seeing so many people contending.
Brian Jennings:And the more I've engaged, the more I've realized the people who are contending, actually, a lot of them are speaking out of a lot of ignorance, but they're the ones speaking.
Brian Jennings:really strongly often.
Brian Jennings:So yeah, I'm, I'm with you on that principle.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, one of the things in the book that you talk about is the four ways of wisdom and tact.
Heath Hollensbe:And I thought this was helpful from a practical standpoint.
Heath Hollensbe:And one of the lines you mentioned is you say, without tact, wisdom cannot be heard.
Heath Hollensbe:But without wisdom, tact only makes foolishness more palatable.
Heath Hollensbe:But when wisdom and tact are paired together, you can apply knowledge that welcomes people to hear it.
Heath Hollensbe:And then you give four different ways that people can walk through with wisdom and tact via questions, restraint, prayer, and obedience.
Heath Hollensbe:You mind unpacking those a little bit for us?
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:So the, the asking questions, um, is You know, when that moment comes where there's an argument or a disagreement, or it really made just a really important topic of just asking as many questions as you can.
Brian Jennings:And I tell a story in the book of going to a key volunteer in the church years ago and admonishing him, rebuking him for something that he had messed up in, in ministry role.
Brian Jennings:And then when he, I could tell how hurt he was.
Brian Jennings:And he began talking and I was, I was like, Oh my goodness.
Brian Jennings:And then I had to go back and apologize like 10 times, not because he demanded it, but because it deserved it because I was so out of line and I totally misread what had happened.
Brian Jennings:I misread his motives and what had, and if I would have just gone in there and been like, Hey, tell me about what happened last Sunday morning.
Brian Jennings:It would have, it would have all been avoided.
Brian Jennings:It was one question would have changed the whole thing.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:And so I was the guilty party in that one.
Brian Jennings:And so I've tried to just remember, man, ask questions, ask questions and keep asking questions.
Brian Jennings:And yeah, that's what Jesus did so often.
Brian Jennings:The second is to show restraint.
Brian Jennings:And one of the things that I do when I counsel couples is that it's, there's almost always one of the two.
Brian Jennings:is quicker to explode or to want to get it all out on the, on the table like right now.
Brian Jennings:And, and usually one of them would rather just put it off forever and often there's those two extremes.
Brian Jennings:And one of the things I talk to couples about is, okay, for the person who wants to talk right now, you probably need to give the other person some space, may not need to be very long but you need, and you yourself need some space.
Brian Jennings:The very fact that you're trying to want to say all this stuff right now probably isn't good.
Brian Jennings:You need some restraint.
Brian Jennings:So what about this?
Brian Jennings:Like agree that you're going to take a walk or you're going to do whatever you've got scheduled and in two hours you're going to reconvene and talk about this, but still agree that you are going to talk about it.
Brian Jennings:And I think in that restraint doesn't mean that you, you never address things.
Brian Jennings:It just means you put a little bit of time and wisdom and prayer and thought before you get to it.
Brian Jennings:The third thing is prayer.
Brian Jennings:And we see that through the book of Daniel.
Brian Jennings:I do a little bit of study there.
Brian Jennings:Just we see through the Bible, God's people pray, you know, they don't panic first.
Brian Jennings:They don't try to solve it all themselves first.
Brian Jennings:They pray and see what God is doing, see how God is doing things.
Brian Jennings:And I love in Daniel 10 when God, you know, just to kind of paraphrase, he says, Hey, I, I, I've known you and I knew what you were going to pray before your lips were even moving.
Brian Jennings:And so I'm, I'm in this, I'm watching you, I'm, I'm with you.
Brian Jennings:And you know, Daniel's prayer was part of his humility and part of his posture and part of everything about who he was, was his walk with the Lord and realizing God's presence in his life.
Brian Jennings:So I just love the, the thought of choosing prayer over panic and fear and revenge and debate.
Brian Jennings:And it seems like kind of a, a Sunday school answer, but how many of us are like really doing that and really living that out?
Brian Jennings:And the, and the fourth thing is obey.
Brian Jennings:And I talk specifically about focusing on obedience instead of the outcomes.
Brian Jennings:And I think it, especially in, in high stress situations, to hang onto that idea.
Brian Jennings:And I tell the story for, uh, for readers, my.
Brian Jennings:my wife and I adopted.
Brian Jennings:And when we were in the middle, it was an international adoption.
Brian Jennings:God had really kind of led us on this interesting journey.
Brian Jennings:But we found out we were pregnant in the middle of the adoption.
Brian Jennings:We already had two boys.
Brian Jennings:Um, but the, the adoption guidelines said, you know, if you become pregnant during this, process of adoption, which if you, if you know, it takes forever.
Brian Jennings:It's a, you know, they call it the paper pregnancy for a reason.
Brian Jennings:And so, uh, yeah, and it is, it's a, it's, it's definitely labor.
Brian Jennings:Um, and so it says if you, if you get pregnant during this time, then the adoption's off.
Brian Jennings:because we don't want to send a child into a home that's has the chaos of a, of a birth going on.
Brian Jennings:And I understand that, but at that time we knew our daughter's story.
Brian Jennings:We saw her pictures.
Brian Jennings:I was, I, I would dream about her every night
Caesar Kalinowski:and
Brian Jennings:it was, You know, so she was ours.
Brian Jennings:In my mind, she was ours.
Brian Jennings:She was in my heart.
Brian Jennings:She was our daughter.
Brian Jennings:Um, she had suffered the, the death of two parents.
Brian Jennings:And so our, you know, we were, I was as devastated as I've ever been in my life.
Brian Jennings:And I remember, uh, getting online the next day and just, you know, looking up, what do you do if you're in this situation?
Brian Jennings:And I got response back from about 50 people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And
Brian Jennings:they all said, um, what you do is you hide the pregnancy and mom stays home and the dad travels, uh, for the trip.
Brian Jennings:And that happens sometimes.
Brian Jennings:They can't really ask any questions.
Brian Jennings:You bring the daughter home and by the time you've given birth, it's too late and they won't do anything about it.
Brian Jennings:And so I was then trying to, you know, look in scripture and find all of the places where God tells us to lie.
Brian Jennings:Um, in order to get our way and that's a tough Bible study.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's the one about the, uh, shrewd manager or something, but, uh, twist that one pretty hard.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:You can twist that and maybe twist Mose or Abraham just around a little bit.
Brian Jennings:But, uh, um, I had a, I met with my best friend and, uh, and he said, Brian, why, why are you acting like you need to be, be in control of the situation now?
Brian Jennings:Do you think you've been in control all along?
Caesar Kalinowski:And those are the
Brian Jennings:words that I needed to humble me and, uh, the, uh,
Caesar Kalinowski:did he do that on Facebook or did he do it face to face or face to face?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Brian Jennings:that's better.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's another principle we're learning here, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Certain things
Brian Jennings:face to face and gently and he had come to meet me cause I was in a mess and, um.
Brian Jennings:And so I was able to really hear that and that really changed my whole thinking and it helped me be at peace and, um, God ended up providing and we were able to adopt, uh, our daughter, but we actually did the right things.
Brian Jennings:We, we called them and we said, Hey, we want you to just, we want to be honest, we're pregnant.
Brian Jennings:And we know what, you know, the, the, your papers say, your policies are, but we also want you to know that we think she's our daughter and, you know, I'll crawl to your office in Virginia if that's what it takes, but just let us know.
Caesar Kalinowski:And
Brian Jennings:so it ends up that the, the rule wasn't quite as hard and fast as they had communicated.
Brian Jennings:So anyway, we, we got to see God's provision, but you know, God, you know, He didn't have to provide in the way that he did, but all he did was say, you just, you know, you be obedient and quit worrying about all the outcomes.
Brian Jennings:You be obedient, I'll, I'll handle my business.
Brian Jennings:God is great, so we don't have
Caesar Kalinowski:to be in control, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:God is great, so we don't have to be in control.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, one thing, um, Brian, Another part of the book that was really fascinating to me, and I had never seen it before, is, uh, you're talking in Galatians 5, like 19 through 21, there are eight consecutive sins that fall under the category of not getting along.
Heath Hollensbe:And, and Galatians 5 says, the acts of the flesh are obvious, and that goes on this list, and then the eight in a row are, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, And so it seems like unity is really important to God, and we know this, but we tend to let it get away from us constantly.
Heath Hollensbe:Why do you think, why do you think that is?
Heath Hollensbe:Can you speak into that, and which ways maybe we can check our hearts, uh, when we're confronted with this in the future?
Brian Jennings:Yeah, it's, it's a fascinating thing to just start reading the Bible through that lens of unity.
Brian Jennings:And man, you just start reading through You, you hit the middle of John and for the rest of John, you just see it.
Brian Jennings:You get into the book of Acts and Paul's letters and it just comes up over and over and over.
Brian Jennings:And I think that God knew what a difficult struggle it would be for us to love one another.
Brian Jennings:But he also understands the stakes are so high.
Brian Jennings:And every time the church, you know, does not fellowship and love one another and show unity, then, you know, we blow our witness to the world.
Brian Jennings:There's no way that we can be effective in, you know, evangelism and discipleship and in meeting the needs of the poor when there's all of these, you know, Uh, issues and fights, uh, within ourselves.
Brian Jennings:And so God knew how high the stakes were, how much he cared about it.
Brian Jennings:And, uh, yeah, it seems like we somehow put that on the back burner and we think about other things and focus on other things.
Brian Jennings:It was helpful for me to, uh, I quote a Greek scholar named Kenny Bowles.
Brian Jennings:Uh, just on, on the word heresy, you know, we always think of it as you've chosen the wrong doctrine, but he really unpacks biblically how heresy in Bible terms actually was translated and should be translated that you've just chosen sides because the heresy was the side of the doctrine you chose.
Brian Jennings:And, and so he's saying, you know, Paul here is saying, quit choosing sides, quit, you know, quit saying, I belong to this school of thought or this school of thought or this school of thought.
Brian Jennings:And that kind of flipped my understanding even of that word that I've thought about quite a bit.
Brian Jennings:And so God just, when we begin looking at scripture that way, he just hammers this over and over again.
Brian Jennings:Like, do not neglect this.
Brian Jennings:It matters so much.
Brian Jennings:It's, if, if God is love and if the greatest commandment is to love God and love one another, then we can't, we can't miss that one.
Brian Jennings:We've got to pay more attention to it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Brian, it doesn't seem like escapism is going to be our answer here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like just like avoidance or whatever, or just like, well, this is what I believe.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'll just hide over here and I'll, you know, um, so how, how, you know, just as we kind of start to move towards the end here, how do we, you know, what's, what's your sort of big takeaway for folks listening?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, how do we enter into no man's land, um, you know, dancing rather than dodging, you know, like, Instead of just dodging cultural landmines, how do we actually dance there and become good news?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like that's what I want to be.
Brian Jennings:Yeah, you're, you're absolutely right.
Brian Jennings:And I think, um, uh, I won't tell the whole story, but my favorite chapter in the book is, uh, towards the end where I get to interview John Perkins and just his remarkable story.
Brian Jennings:I just
Caesar Kalinowski:met him.
Brian Jennings:And.
Brian Jennings:Um, okay.
Brian Jennings:Awesome.
Brian Jennings:He's amazing, isn't he?
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:What a, what a man.
Brian Jennings:He, yeah, he is, he is one of, one of my heroes and he has been very, very gracious to me.
Brian Jennings:But, uh, you need to read his whole story and people need to pick up his books and read them.
Brian Jennings:But he, uh, He tells the story of just after he has been the victim, he's been beaten within an inch of his life and he's laying in a, in a jail with no legal charges against him, you know, and his friends thought he had bled out.
Brian Jennings:And he was telling me how this whole story happened with some racist cops who had done this to him.
Brian Jennings:And he said, uh, Brian, if I would have had a grenade, I'd have pulled the pen out and dropped it and blown us all up and it was there laying on that floor that God Interacted with my heart and he convicted me that those officers were victims just like I was, because they were victims of my hate, just like I was a victim of their hate.
Caesar Kalinowski:And
Brian Jennings:God brought my attention to Galatians 2.
Brian Jennings:20.
Brian Jennings:I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live.
Brian Jennings:And so in that moment, Perkins said, you know, I realized that God had called me to lay my life down daily.
Heath Hollensbe:Wow.
Brian Jennings:And if you've seen his life, that's what he's done, um, for 80 some years now.
Brian Jennings:And that's, that's the road to what I think no man's land is, because it's not easy.
Brian Jennings:And there are oftentimes where I'll, I'll have a 24 hour period where I feel like I took some bullets from two different opposing bunkers about some issue, you know, maybe in regards to race or, you know, immigration, or whatever it might be.
Brian Jennings:And it'll be a new subject tomorrow.
Brian Jennings:Just if we're, if we're trying to do this, it's difficult.
Brian Jennings:And so I think we have to prepare our hearts to say, you know, I'm, I'm going to hang on to truth and I'm going to hang on to peace regardless of what people do with that and how they feel about that.
Brian Jennings:And I recognize there's going to be some people who, who don't like that at all, but I think if we hang in there, um, and we encourage others, I think the more we talk about it, I find people who, when they.
Brian Jennings:Talk through this concept.
Brian Jennings:They're so thirsty for it because they're so tired of just constantly being a bunker shooting somebody else.
Brian Jennings:And I think the more we do that, I think we're encouraged.
Brian Jennings:And in the book, you know, I say, it feels like we're dodging bullets a lot, but my prayer is that we can get to where it feels a little more like dancing.
Brian Jennings:And there's some joy in being with one another and being.
Brian Jennings:on the path where Jesus wants us to walk and seeing where we can actually bring about reconciliation.
Brian Jennings:And one of, one of my commitments is to not give up on the people in the bunkers.
Brian Jennings:And I have people say like, just give up on that dude, man, he's never gotten changed.
Brian Jennings:And the other
Caesar Kalinowski:bunkers, you mean, like not giving up on people in the other bunkers.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Beautiful, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:And it's really tempting to do, but I think, uh, you know, you know, God did not give up on Peter and he must have gone through like so many different plans of like, okay, I'm going to show him a vision.
Brian Jennings:I'm going to send Cornelius.
Brian Jennings:We're going to do the council.
Brian Jennings:I'm going to show him the life of Jesus.
Brian Jennings:And then I'm going to have to have Paul still come back and rebuke him later.
Brian Jennings:And if God didn't give up on Peter, you know, I'm thankful he didn't give up on me.
Brian Jennings:And I don't want to give up on the people that maybe don't understand or don't have the heart for it or the mind for it yet.
Brian Jennings:But to keep just saying, man, God wants you to live this life of truth and peace.
Brian Jennings:Come join us.
Brian Jennings:It's good.
Brian Jennings:So we got to stay after it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that just as you're saying that I like the spirits like bringing to mind all the times I was completely sure I was right and I was completely in knucklehead and, and, and, uh, other saints just were gracious and they just, they were for me and they were with me.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then you look back and you're like, Oh man, I was such a, I was such a jerk and such an idiot.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then you are really loving and patient, just like God, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, yeah, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good word, Brian, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm so glad, um, that you've written this and maybe I'm going to pry a copy out of Heath's hands or buy my own.
Caesar Kalinowski:My cold dead fingers.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Brian, thanks, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:I
Heath Hollensbe:just want to say thanks.
Heath Hollensbe:I, and you've been so gracious too.
Heath Hollensbe:One of the things we'll do is include, uh, your website in the show notes, which is dancing in no man's land.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And you've even offered here, uh, that people can contact you if they're interested in leading their church or the group through a four week series to help them pursue truth and peace.
Heath Hollensbe:He says, I'll gladly share the sermons and group lessons and materials, all that for free.
Heath Hollensbe:And so thanks for being generous with that.
Heath Hollensbe:With what you've come to learn and know and love.
Heath Hollensbe:And, uh, and my prayer for the church is that we would follow suit.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, that we might be a people who are peacemakers and not peace breakers.
Heath Hollensbe:And we'll
Caesar Kalinowski:put links to that and to the book and all that stuff in the show notes for everybody too.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we'll make it easy for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll probably drop that stuff at the bottom of the big three for this week as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you do get the free download of the big, this week's big three, that'll just make it super easy for you to connect with Brian and uh, jump on this book.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:Thank you guys so much.
Brian Jennings:And for real, like, I love the podcast.
Brian Jennings:Thank you for what you guys are doing.
Brian Jennings:This is valuable stuff.
Brian Jennings:So I hope you're encouraged and keep after it because the listeners were loving it.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, let's lock into a contract.
Heath Hollensbe:Do you promise to be back on the show with us again?
Brian Jennings:I, yes, I verbal verbal
Heath Hollensbe:verbal commitment.
Heath Hollensbe:Boom.
Heath Hollensbe:All right.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks, Brian.
Brian Jennings:Yeah.
Brian Jennings:Thank you guys.
Brian Jennings:Talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:All right.
Heath Hollensbe:So let's get to the big three that he left us with.
Heath Hollensbe:And the big three are a free download that we want to give to you just some, if you had to boil this down to the basics of this message, what we want you to walk away with and you can get it for free, beautifully written out by going to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what are the big three for this week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:So much stuff in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, uh, read the book.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I was trying to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Listen, talk, engage, fiercely write down my thoughts, but here they are.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here's the big three for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:First one, God is not wanting you to believe or settle for a watered down version of the truth connected to any issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:But he does offer a way to break down walls with a truth that will heal families and friendships in churches in communities.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember the gospel is always good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:And our words, and even the way we present them, should be too.
Caesar Kalinowski:They should be good news, regardless if it's face to face or online or when speaking about others and rehashing our conversations.
Caesar Kalinowski:If what we're saying is not received as good news, mmm, might want to reconsider it, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, second one, sometimes God does call us to be in the middle of sticky, thorny issues and situations, to be light in a dark place.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's that no man's land.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sometimes you're going to get out there and you may end up with some scars.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:But good news is God doesn't call us to walk into this alone.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because in Christ, we now have the Holy Spirit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember Jesus said the Spirit will come and dwell in you and lead you in all the ways of truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not all the ways of opinion or winning an argument, but in, in, in truth, in wisdom.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that Spirit now dwells inside us and guides our minds and our words and our motives.
Caesar Kalinowski:If we'll let him.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep, absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Third, um, Wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, this is like my head is swimming around so much.
Caesar Kalinowski:He said, um, Brian said, engage before you contend.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, engage the issue, engage people, get involved in the issues you care about or think you do, and engage those involved and affected by the issue before you contend.
Caesar Kalinowski:Before you try and win every argument connected to the topic, practice gracious restraint, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, good word.
Caesar Kalinowski:Ask good questions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Give people space and time to think before you fire another bullet from your argument gun, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Some people need more time.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, that's especially face to face, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:We're all wired a little different.
Caesar Kalinowski:And remember, actually stop and pray.
Caesar Kalinowski:Asking God what to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:His stance and heart on the issue is and what if anything he wants you to say connected to it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's beautiful.
Caesar Kalinowski:It might be nothing.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:That is a great Big Three.
Heath Hollensbe:Again, so many things we could take away from this episode, but that engage before you contend was like, that was a zinger for me as well.
Heath Hollensbe:So we want you to get those for free.
Heath Hollensbe:You get it as a download by going to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash Big Three right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Also, if you're interested in learning a full framework for discipleship and mission, and you'd like someone to walk alongside and show you all that, coach you in that, encourage you, bring some accountability to setting all this up and really starting to live this way, I'd I would love to help you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I like to get together, tell you a little bit about our coaching, maybe hop on a zoom call or something like that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just go over to everyday disciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash coaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can learn more about that and you can also fill out a little mini form that'll contact me and we can set up a time that we can talk.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, time is up for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Join us again next week or go back through our hundreds of episodes.
Caesar Kalinowski:to continue to learn discipleship as a lifestyle in everyday life and how the good news of the gospel speaks into everything naturally and powerfully.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show, and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.