Believing What God Says Is True Of You
Let’s be honest: the life you lead isn’t what you’ve always dreamt of. And maybe the person you’ve become isn’t who you’ve always imagined. God longs to redeem the story of your life and set you on the path to reclaiming your dreams… His dreams. Are you ready?
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar and Heath speak with author and international church leader, Jo Saxton. Her insights into who God made you to be are refreshing and may encourage you to reexamine a few things in your life.
Born to Nigerian parents and raised in London, Jo brings a multi-cultural and international perspective to leadership. She challenges societal stereotypes and helps people discover who they truly are, by seeing themselves the way God sees them. You will LOVE this interview!
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- How we begin to believe lies about ourselves.
- Why God’s view of you changes how you see yourself in powerful ways.
- How you may have lost your unique “voice” and how to get it back.
- Practical steps for moving toward your true and exceptional identity.
From this episode:
“Is this the life you were meant to live? God sees all you’ve struggled to hide. He hears the voice inside you that others have silenced. He knows the potential and purpose that no one else valued. God will redeem your story if you will let him.”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Jo’s book: The Dream of You
Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living.
Transcript
I, I understand our voice as the kind of, it's like the living representation.
Jo Saxton:It's your identity out loud, you know, your passions, your thoughts, your dreams out loud and articulated for the world around you.
Jo Saxton:The example I give in the book is of a period of time where I was bullied, where every action I had and the way I looked and the way I dressed was criticized day after day after day and it got more and more convenient to get a little smaller, to hide away, to try and avoid, um, and avoid conflict and confrontation with the people who were bullying me, but also realizing that the bullying tapped into my deepest fears that what they said was true.
Jo Saxton:And, and I think what happens with us when we lose our voice is we're told.
Jo Saxton:our voices don't count, uh, we don't see our voices represented in the world around us.
Jo Saxton:You have some, like, devastating experience where you're numbed and you're silenced, and the things that God has wired you with, the ways that you are created, are muted.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, hey, hey.
Caesar Kalinowski:How's it going?
Caesar Kalinowski:Good to be back with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Having a good week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hope so!
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll tell you what, I am a little bit in love with the whole Formula One thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know if this is gonna hit anybody else's radar or has, but there's that Formula One racing show, that whole series that's been on Netflix.
Caesar Kalinowski:I fell in love with that thing and binged straight through it.
Caesar Kalinowski:New season drops, I'm all over it, and now because I feel like I got such a backstory to people.
Caesar Kalinowski:All the people, the racers and the people who are in charge of the team and the boss and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now I watch F1, the Formula One racing, uh, every week, the races around the world, the Grand Prix's and all.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I am, I'm crazy about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've always kind of been into racing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I raced a stock car right out of high school and I only got to do it for one season.
Caesar Kalinowski:What a blast it was.
Caesar Kalinowski:I didn't really have the gear or a family with a garage and, you know, repair shop and all.
Caesar Kalinowski:Most of the guys, my buddies who raced, they had that kind of thing where their dad owned a repair shop or, mechanic or something like that, but it was all blast.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm loving that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know about you anyway, not even sure why I'm talking about that, but how fun is it?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's super fun.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, have you joined us over on the Facebook group yet in, uh, you know, the Everyday Disciple group that we have there?
Caesar Kalinowski:We drop notifications for the new episodes.
Caesar Kalinowski:I ask questions.
Caesar Kalinowski:People ask questions.
Caesar Kalinowski:I drop resources in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a way to stay even deeper connected with us all on the show and it's a super easy way to get ahold of me, ask any questions you might have.
Caesar Kalinowski:Love to hear from you.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Also, I just want to invite you to subscribe to the show on whatever platform you listen to and by all means, and I know I asked this a lot, but would you please share the Everyday Disciple Podcast?
Caesar Kalinowski:Real easy to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let folks know what you're learning.
Caesar Kalinowski:Share that out maybe through your church newsletter, your church's Facebook page.
Caesar Kalinowski:Type it out even if you need to in the bulletin or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Get the word out.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's, let's continue to equip people in gospel fluency and this lifestyle of discipleship.
Caesar Kalinowski:Easy to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just send folks to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash listen.
Caesar Kalinowski:and that'll give you all the options of all the different platforms.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pretty easy.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd appreciate it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, today we're going to be talking about one of my most absolute favorite topics, and that's our identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Of course, you probably hear us talk a lot about that here on the Everyday Disciple Podcast, and that's because it is so important to form people in their identity, their gospel identity, and help them understand who God says they are is so key.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's this huge connection between between many dots and movements in scripture that I hope I've made clear over a lot of different episodes.
Caesar Kalinowski:But just real quick, when you see our creation, our creation in the image of a triune God, let us make humans in our image to be like us.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we're connected to the father and the son and the spirit in our creation there.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then God breathes his own breath.
Caesar Kalinowski:That word, that same word is the spirit into the first humans and sends them out to be fruitful and multiply.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then we see Jesus doing the same thing with his.
Caesar Kalinowski:disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:He says, Hey, as I was sent by the father, now I send you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he says here, and he breathes on them, receive the spirit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now go and make disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then he says, how do you do that?
Caesar Kalinowski:You baptize them.
Caesar Kalinowski:You immerse.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what that word means.
Caesar Kalinowski:Them in their true identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:You'd immerse them in the name of the father and in the name of the son and in the name of the Holy Spirit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And then he sends, uh, us sends humans, his disciples out to make more disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is all so huge in understanding all of this.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's key to us fulfilling God's eternal purpose and the purpose of the gospel, which is to fill the world with his glory.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he does that through us making more and more disciples of Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:So living in light of our true identity and authority and privilege is all part of our spiritual freedom, our relational peace, and being a part of God accomplishing his eternal purpose.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now Heath and I had the privilege to talk with author and international speaker Jo Saxton about our identity and it was an amazing conversation that pierced my heart in the best way and was such an encouragement.
Caesar Kalinowski:Take a listen.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have a very hard to snag and awesome guest with us today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, Jo Saxton, huh?
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:She's actually a really good and somewhat long term friend.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Kind of met on the road and out speaking at conferences and just kind of blown away by her as a person, as a mom, as a leader.
Caesar Kalinowski:I wish we'd talk about about ten things today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Killer accent.
Caesar Kalinowski:Killer accent.
Caesar Kalinowski:which, you know, when you mix Nigerian with like from London, you know, British, it all sounds like crazy, but I don't want to say too much more other than, gosh, I love and respect her so much.
Caesar Kalinowski:She knows that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, let's bring her on cause she's going to tell us a lot of her story as we get started.
Heath Hollensbe:Great.
Heath Hollensbe:Jo, welcome to the show.
Heath Hollensbe:Glad to be here.
Heath Hollensbe:Um, I was gonna, I just finished your book, The Dream of You, and it was absolutely incredible.
Heath Hollensbe:It was amazing how much of that clarified some stuff that I've actually gone through in my own life.
Heath Hollensbe:And, uh, You have such an incredible story of how you came to faith and then, uh, stepped into leadership.
Heath Hollensbe:Would you mind taking just a couple minutes to share a bit of that story with our listeners?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, because it's not, Jo, it's not the
Caesar Kalinowski:average story you have.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Immigrant parent, and in the intro, we were just having a little bit of fun with, you know, you have a unique accent because it's not from one place and you've lived in a lot of, anyway.
Caesar Kalinowski:So yeah, let's, uh, let's hear a little bit of your story and how you You came into faith, but also into leadership.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause I kinda knew, I know you in that phase of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we didn't grow up together, but I know you as a leader and one of my absolute favorite speakers and like prophets to like put me like, whoa, I got to think hard and pray hard about this.
Jo Saxton:Thank you.
Jo Saxton:Well, um, my faith journey and very much a journey, I think began when I was quite small.
Jo Saxton:My background is Nigerian and, , within my family, my grandparents are Muslims, were Muslims, and there are a number of faiths represented in our family.
Jo Saxton:So it wasn't kind of, I didn't get to inherit, a Christian faith in any, any, in any measure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're an accidental Christian.
Jo Saxton:I kind of, there's no such thing, I'm kidding.
Jo Saxton:So you know what I mean.
Jo Saxton:and what happened, I actually came to faith through, Uh, Children's Club that were, where these, God bless them, this couple who were missionaries basically in the inner city, in the Methodist church, down the road, basically had a heart for the kids in the neighborhood and they gave their all.
Jo Saxton:And they were the kind of people I say like Hebrews talks of when it says the world weren't worthy of them, you know, cause they went through a lot of tough times and, um, thank
Caesar Kalinowski:you for that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Huh?
Jo Saxton:Yeah, I know.
Jo Saxton:I'm so grateful.
Jo Saxton:And they, they were very intentional reaching out to the kids in the, in the neighborhood.
Jo Saxton:And one of my friends said, you should come along to this kids club.
Jo Saxton:And I said, why?
Jo Saxton:And she said, because there are snacks and there are games and it's awesome.
Jo Saxton:So that's the reason
Heath Hollensbe:I went to Sunday school as a kid.
Heath Hollensbe:Kool Aid and cookie snacks.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:I gave my life to Jesus because I got a sucker every week that I did it.
Heath Hollensbe:And so.
Jo Saxton:Not all consumption is bad friends, not all consumption is bad.
Jo Saxton:So, um, and I remember them talking to me about Jesus and me, first of all, trying to work out where he was in the room, um, because they talked about him.
Jo Saxton:So it's in such a familiar way.
Jo Saxton:And, um, and then them describing Jesus.
Jo Saxton:And I remember one of them said, you know, you can talk to Jesus about anything, even your teachers.
Jo Saxton:I mean,
Jo Saxton:I was nine and I'm like, seriously, that is like, like the best ever.
Jo Saxton:And I remember, I, I, I mean, gosh, this is probably some indicator of how, of my personality.
Jo Saxton:I remember going up to the youth leaders and saying, are you going to have a time when, when you kind of give a talk at the end of the evening, tell everybody about Jesus and offer an invitation for people to come and
Caesar Kalinowski:sign up.
Caesar Kalinowski:How do I sign up?
Jo Saxton:And because when you do that, I will then become a Christian.
Jo Saxton:So I need you to set a date for you to do that quite soon.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:How did you even know that was sort of the old school standard program?
Jo Saxton:Um, I'd seen and heard similar things.
Jo Saxton:I'd heard about it.
Jo Saxton:Some of the other kids in the group had talked about this kind of holy moment they had, um, and I just thought it was time to get mine, you know,
Caesar Kalinowski:I
Jo Saxton:was like, let's get in on this good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:This guy sounds amazing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want to know this Jesus better.
Jo Saxton:And they were very gracious and they arranged one for a few weeks later.
Jo Saxton:And when they said, if you want to come to play stand up, I just shot up and said, it's my time.
Jo Saxton:And you
Caesar Kalinowski:said, and I've been working on some messages so I'm just going to go ahead and get up right now.
Jo Saxton:I did bring a friend with me and she came to baseball all that night.
Caesar Kalinowski:So now jump away, jump away ahead.
Caesar Kalinowski:And let's wrap things up.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, golly, so much stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know you're deeply connected.
Caesar Kalinowski:Our listeners know, you know, uh, uh, 3dm, you're deeply connected to 3dm and that's kind of how we met.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, Mike, Mike Breen has been a big part of your life and a great spiritual parent.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know, right?
Jo Saxton:Yeah, and that was in my college years, and I think, for me, all things missional, um, just seemed like a very natural, it had a very natural resonance to me, um, in terms of obviously my church back, my, my journey to faith was someone invited me, and, uh, and very much in the way I was discipled, that was the expectation, we were gonna, we assumed we were sent.
Jo Saxton:Um, to people.
Jo Saxton:And so when I
Caesar Kalinowski:Why is that more normal?
Caesar Kalinowski:Holy
Jo Saxton:cow.
Jo Saxton:That's another
Caesar Kalinowski:episode, but
Jo Saxton:I guess with the UK as well, I think the church attendance, um, was was not at its highest, shall we say?
Jo Saxton:So that I think was part of it too.
Jo Saxton:And in my college years, I remember thinking, I'd been to Bible college, um, for a couple of years before, moved to university in Sheffield, was looking for a church, basically walked in and, um, and people were friendly.
Jo Saxton:I mean, that, that, that was a kind of litmus test.
Jo Saxton:My, and some of my college friends went there, but I was very much aware, like college is a time when the lid comes off your life in so many ways.
Jo Saxton:And so the things that I'd managed, coped with, ignored throughout my childhood and my late teens when I had a little sojourn away.
Caesar Kalinowski:As you do.
Jo Saxton:It was so boring as well.
Jo Saxton:Can I say it was one of the most overrated six months of my life.
Jo Saxton:Um, yeah.
Jo Saxton:And I remember coming, going to the church and just thinking, right, I just want to get rooted, but there's a lot I don't know.
Jo Saxton:And I remember meeting Mike and Sally, um, Around that time in a fish and chip shop, which is obviously a bastion of English, um,
Caesar Kalinowski:Love it.
Jo Saxton:Glory.
Jo Saxton:You like, you like,
Caesar Kalinowski:you like, you like mushy peas?
Caesar Kalinowski:I do.
Caesar Kalinowski:I do.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love peas.
Caesar Kalinowski:I saw most of them.
Caesar Kalinowski:I do too.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so many Brits hate on them.
Caesar Kalinowski:I love
Jo Saxton:them.
Jo Saxton:And they're wrong, Caesar.
Jo Saxton:They're wrong.
Jo Saxton:They
Caesar Kalinowski:are.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's just be honest now.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm glad we've settled that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I feel even closer to you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So how did you make, how'd you make the jump then into leadership?
Caesar Kalinowski:So community seemed normal, uh, outreach, outreach in the sense of true outreach, like let's treat people like family and let's get them in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, how did you make the leap to God giving you a voice and being, finding yourself in leadership?
Jo Saxton:You know, I think I would, I mean, I've thought a lot about this, but as I get asked, and I think, I feel like it happened to me, I mean, from when I was a kid, like when I was 12, I remember, that was the first time I preached, and it was at our church, where I'd become a Christian, and we were doing an outreach to, um, our community, and they said this time the kids were going to run it, so I was giving the talk.
Jo Saxton:Um,
Caesar Kalinowski:did you do an altar call at the end?
Jo Saxton:I'm I, I think I did.
Jo Saxton:Heck yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think
Jo Saxton:I saw signs of water calls at the end.
Jo Saxton:I see that
Caesar Kalinowski:hand.
Caesar Kalinowski:I see that hand.
Caesar Kalinowski:Anybody
Jo Saxton:who's got a dog, come forward, kind of thing.
Jo Saxton:I mean, I
Caesar Kalinowski:was,
Jo Saxton:I was, I was very welcoming, should I say.
Jo Saxton:And, um, and at school I was often the captain of teams.
Jo Saxton:I was often given, um, like positions in the class.
Jo Saxton:to kind of represent the students.
Jo Saxton:And so, and I was always volunteered and I just didn't, I never had a good reason to say no.
Jo Saxton:I
Caesar Kalinowski:wasn't,
Jo Saxton:I wasn't that comfortable with it, but I was never, I never had a good reason to say no.
Jo Saxton:So I was kind of used to being that person who was put in charge, um, throughout my career.
Jo Saxton:So Jo,
Caesar Kalinowski:I gotta say, I'm picking up on a pattern here already with your story.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Accidental Salvation, Accidental Christian, Accidental Leader.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here you go.
Jo Saxton:I know.
Jo Saxton:I just gotta walk it around clueless, I think.
Jo Saxton:I'm the most.
Jo Saxton:No,
Caesar Kalinowski:no, no.
Caesar Kalinowski:Actually, what I, let's say the pattern is, is just say yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like people have, they miss it.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't, they're not saying yes to Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:And like you said, that six months sort of walk away wasn't, was pretty boring.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then you said yes to leadership because it was presented.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I wonder how many of us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Boy, does this tie into to the book that you just wrote and we're gonna talk about Dream of You.
Caesar Kalinowski:Does this tie in that people don't say yes to things because they don't, they don't believe this?
Caesar Kalinowski:What God says is true of them, and they don't believe the dream that God has.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me, let me just say this right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:Heath and I both, like, love your book, The Dream of You.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, and, um, It's really addressing folks learning how to be comfortable with who God says they are, which is like our sort of well worn topic on the show, is we're always talking about identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:We just do, because I, we think it precedes everything.
Jo Saxton:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why is it so important to you?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, I am so stoked that you're writing and talking about this and I know you well enough to know that you have been, it's not like it sprung up, you know, this week or, you know, this month when the book ships, but why is, why isn't identity so important to you, Jo?
Jo Saxton:Um, I think probably because it, throughout my faith journey, it was it was one of those deciding impact, deciding things I had to really fight for.
Jo Saxton:And that I, when, when I came to faith, it was like the battle began and it was like, was I going to believe what God said about me?
Jo Saxton:And it was so far removed from the world I was in.
Jo Saxton:And, and look, I would read these things about who I was because of Christ and the transformation.
Jo Saxton:And I began to encounter that level of transformation.
Jo Saxton:And I noticed again, another pattern was the more I got into that, the bolder I was, the more free I was.
Jo Saxton:The more passionate I was, and the greater purpose I felt.
Jo Saxton:And any time I didn't feel those things, it stemmed from a battle over my identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:It really did.
Caesar Kalinowski:I tell people all the time, the more they believe their identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, seriously believe it, it's from Christ, the more authority and privilege they're going to live into.
Jo Saxton:Absolutely.
Jo Saxton:I, I, I, I genuinely, I mean, we don't live beyond what we believe about ourselves anyway, but I, I think there is that, um, that terrible, that terrible thing that so many of us encounter, we're told lies.
Jo Saxton:We're told lies by our culture, we're told lies sometimes by significant figures in our lives.
Jo Saxton:We're told lies by people we love.
Jo Saxton:Um,
Caesar Kalinowski:the world do be Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:The world do to be, if you do this, then you'll be this.
Jo Saxton:Yep.
Jo Saxton:And, and they limit us.
Jo Saxton:And some of, sometimes even the good advice limits us, you know?
Jo Saxton:And, and I, and I think I like, for
Caesar Kalinowski:instance, for instance, good advice that limits us or you,
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Jo Saxton:Um, I think sometimes when you're told not to rock the boat, when you, when, um, when passivity is placed, sometimes, um, I think, well, oh, you, nothing could ever change.
Jo Saxton:So don't, don't, don't get worked up about this.
Jo Saxton:Don't get worked up about these, these injustices because, well, you know, it's just the way of the world.
Jo Saxton:And it is the way of the world.
Jo Saxton:And, that's true, but, supposing that agitation is like that fire in your bones, that Jeremiah had, supposing that agitation is God trying to get your attention, and on the other side of him getting your attention is something that you're called to do.
Jo Saxton:You, if you, Um, someone's trying to make you feel better.
Jo Saxton:And I think some, and maybe trying to comfort or trying to just not make it awkward, trying to feel socially, make you socially fit by not saying something that people don't know how to answer.
Jo Saxton:Like, um, and I think, I think it costs stuff.
Jo Saxton:I think it costs, and I think it costs the work of the kingdom.
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, this, uh, what it reminds me of, it kind of ties in closely is, uh, one of the things that really stood out to me in the book was this whole concept of losing your voice.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, like over time, like your identity just gets stolen away from you and battered out of you.
Heath Hollensbe:Would you mind unpacking that concept a little bit for our listeners who haven't gotten a chance to read the book yet?
Heath Hollensbe:And how we lose our voice over time?
Jo Saxton:Yeah, I, I, um, for me, the, the, I was fascinated when I first started looking at this, realizing that the word voice, um, comes from voc or vox in the Latin, and it's the same root word from where you find your vocation, the word vocation, the vocare, and, um, I, I understand our voice as the kind of, it's like the living representation, it's your, it's your identity out loud.
Jo Saxton:You know, um, your, your passions, your thoughts, bringing out loud, and articulate it for the world around you.
Jo Saxton:And I think, um, the example I give in the book is of a, of a period of time where I was bullied, where every action I had in the way I looked and the way I dressed was criticized day after day after day.
Jo Saxton:And it got more and more convenient to get a little smaller, to hide away, to try and avoid.
Jo Saxton:Um, and.
Jo Saxton:and avoid conflict and confrontation with the people who are bullying me because, and, but also realizing that, uh, that the bullying tapped into my deepest fears that what they said was true.
Jo Saxton:And, and I think what happens with us when we lose our voice is we're told our voices don't count.
Jo Saxton:Uh, we don't see our voices represented in the world around us.
Jo Saxton:Um, you have some like devastating experience where you're numbed.
Jo Saxton:and you're silenced and the things that God has wired you with, the ways that you are created, um, are muted or just eroded.
Jo Saxton:Hard times can cause us to lose our voice and sometimes they have it, we lose it in our informative periods of our lives, like our formative years.
Jo Saxton:Like, I'll give you an example.
Jo Saxton:When I was being mentored by someone once, I talked about pioneering and being called to that and they said, Oh, you know what?
Jo Saxton:That's just a fad.
Jo Saxton:Pioneering is a fad.
Jo Saxton:Um, don't even think about it.
Jo Saxton:And I remember just feeling crushed, because it took all the courage I had to say it.
Jo Saxton:And then to hear from someone who loved me, and who was, who in many other respects had been really good for me, Um, I don't think they had any, any, I mean they apologized a few years later, but um, because I ignored them.
Jo Saxton:But
Jo Saxton:in that time, it was soul crushing.
Jo Saxton:It was soul crushing to think, I really feel this is, there's something in this.
Jo Saxton:I'm not saying I've got it right, but there's something in this.
Jo Saxton:And then to have it feel so minimized and belittled and dismissed, it was even the dis, I mean, the hand action was dismissed,
Caesar Kalinowski:was
Jo Saxton:dismissive as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we're all picturing, we're all picturing that now, like meh, hand going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:I
Jo Saxton:mean, it was just, and it, and.
Jo Saxton:As she swept those, the, the things I'd said away, my voice went with it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gosh, that's tragic.
Caesar Kalinowski:And today there seems to be in the media, uh, in a good way, this, this, uh, there's a big uprising about listen, everyone has a voice and people, you need to believe the good things about yourself and, and especially around being female, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And being a woman and wow, about time.
Caesar Kalinowski:And yet I got to say this, and here I am sitting in my white privilege seat of podcasting today, but I, I, but what.
Caesar Kalinowski:The difference here is, is, are we finding our voice in light of who God says we are?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or was it, was what was supposed to be true of us and is true of us because God created us in his image and Christ is recreating us?
Caesar Kalinowski:Has that all been squished out of us?
Caesar Kalinowski:And then the, I think sometimes the other side of that coin, at least the way it's coming off on TV a lot is like, so you go out and make your own identity.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You build, you build a you and you show everybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's, that's different.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause now you got to, now you're on a treadmill that you created and you've got to keep it up.
Jo Saxton:Absolutely.
Jo Saxton:And there are a lot of voices out there telling us what to think and be.
Jo Saxton:And I think the dilemma is, or I think the people have been silenced and women in particular, and those on the margins, people of color have been silenced for so long, so long.
Jo Saxton:I think we're seeing the cost.
Jo Saxton:I mean, we're clearly seeing the cost of when our voices haven't been heard.
Jo Saxton:Um, and we're seeing the devastating impact and we're seeing the grief.
Jo Saxton:out loud, you know, and the, and the devastation.
Jo Saxton:And we're seeing the dark consequences of what happens when you silence and you crush and bully.
Jo Saxton:And I would say that is one part of the healing journey, but it's not the full part of the healing journey.
Jo Saxton:It's an important and it's a valid part.
Jo Saxton:Well, the healing journey.
Jo Saxton:And, and honestly, I think, you know, when you silenced and minimized and abused and, and oppressed people for this long, this is what you should expect.
Jo Saxton:You know, you should expect people's voices to be loud.
Jo Saxton:And, and as you said at the beginning, Caesar, and to sit and listen and take it in and then ask the question, what does redemption look like?
Caesar Kalinowski:What
Jo Saxton:does fully fledged, um, fully fledged, And the question I've been asked in the book is, who were you before anyone said who you were supposed to be?
Jo Saxton:And what I think we've seen, and what I've encountered, is people tell me throughout my life who I'm supposed to be because I'm a woman, who I'm supposed to be because I'm black, who I'm supposed to be because I grew up in the inner city and because I'm poor, and
Caesar Kalinowski:Or who you're supposed to be because you're a Christian.
Jo Saxton:Or who you're supposed to be because you're a Christian, and X, Y, you know what I mean?
Jo Saxton:And the list sadly goes on.
Jo Saxton:And I think what we've had, and there had been times in my life where it's like, I'm not those things.
Jo Saxton:I'm not the, I'm not the stereotype.
Jo Saxton:I'm not, definitely not that bigoted statement.
Jo Saxton:I'm not that sexist comment.
Jo Saxton:I'm not that all of those things.
Jo Saxton:Um, but nor am I a reaction to those things either.
Jo Saxton:I'm actually who God said I am.
Jo Saxton:And I think it's, I think for us as church, I think we have a responsibility and I think a call to help for ourselves to do that journey and to lead others in that journey as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Powerful.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I hope, I mean, I just want to underscore one thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, what was your voice and who were you before people started to squish that out of you?
Caesar Kalinowski:I didn't say it as well, but that I want to give people permission to hear that, hear what Jo's saying and go back and think through that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Who were you?
Caesar Kalinowski:What were those dreams?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, you know, the Bible says that God gives you the desires of your heart.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I don't think that means you desired up and God's a genie.
Caesar Kalinowski:He'll give it to you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, I really like a new Tesla.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's go, God.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, but I, but I, I think God gives us the desires of our heart and, and, and we long for those things.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then as he fulfills them, we, we see his grace and his glory and how awesome he is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is speaking into that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, let's Let's move to some practical stuff if we, if we can, Jo.
Caesar Kalinowski:What, what are some practical things that you'd give folks who are actively seeking to move towards their true identity?
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe go back in time in some ways, both in life, but also into like, I don't know if I've ever even heard God's voice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, you said you share some practical stuff in the book as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, just whatever comes to mind, let's, let's give our listeners a few, here, here's some things we can get started with.
Jo Saxton:Yeah.
Jo Saxton:I would say, first of all, don't be too quick on the unpacking, how you got here.
Jo Saxton:Um, I've, uh, do you know what I mean in terms of, um, where you're at now and all the voices that have defined them?
Jo Saxton:I would, uh, and I spend a lot of time getting people to take a long, hard look at where they, what they've become.
Jo Saxton:Partly because if we, if we whiz past that bit, we don't actually get to the freedom piece.
Jo Saxton:So, or it's a lasting piece.
Jo Saxton:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't expect to go from darkness straight to like, bing, cleaned up, light, got it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Perfect voice now.
Jo Saxton:So I'd say take, I'd say, first of all, I encourage people to take their time on that.
Jo Saxton:And, and, you know, for sometimes, depending on what's happened to people, that might be counseling.
Jo Saxton:That could be all kinds of things.
Jo Saxton:Um, as they begin to unpack, because things come up as you begin to do, as you begin to explore this stuff, when you realize, the journey it's been.
Jo Saxton:It can be quite, there can be a grieving process there.
Jo Saxton:So I like to, um, encourage people, but as they go on that journey, some of the things I, I encourage people to get in touch with is what things they like.
Jo Saxton:You know, the amount of people I've asked, what things do you like to do?
Jo Saxton:And they don't know anymore because they've lost their way.
Jo Saxton:They've been so busy working, they've forgotten their clear passions and the things they enjoy.
Jo Saxton:And so I ask people, what sort of things make you happy?
Jo Saxton:What sort of things make you angry?
Jo Saxton:If you could do anything in the world, if you could change anything, um, Uh, or do anything and you weren't afraid.
Jo Saxton:You know, those kinds of questions that we use to explore calling and vocation.
Jo Saxton:I ask those kinds of questions and I ask them as questions because we're wanting people to flex a muscle.
Jo Saxton:They've not flexed for a long time about thinking of those things.
Jo Saxton:Um, and getting in and un unearthing those things again.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sometimes they'll ask people to try to un just unleash a little Something is what would you be doing in six months or in a year from now if, if money and or time or your certain circumstances were not an issue.
Jo Saxton:Yes,
Caesar Kalinowski:well about a parent or but I were broke or but you know, but what if none of that was an issue What would you be doing perfect world?
Caesar Kalinowski:God loves you.
Caesar Kalinowski:You ask him he goes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:There you go What would you be doing in six months?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, that's
Jo Saxton:a huge one I often ask that alongside fear as well because I think fear is such a pervasive And I think it manifests itself in so many ways.
Jo Saxton:It manifests itself in comparison, in perfectionism, in passivity, in unhealthy competition and that.
Jo Saxton:So I often ask people about what would you, what or what have your fears held you back from doing for six months?
Jo Saxton:What is your, um, you know, and if you continue to live by this fear, what's that going to look like in six months, a year, two years time?
Jo Saxton:Um, almost for them to realize what the end result of their fears are to come back to saying, I don't want to be like that.
Jo Saxton:And then come back to this question.
Jo Saxton:Also, if you weren't afraid, if time wasn't an issue, if money wasn't an issue, if opportunity for some, I've said, if opportunity and environment wasn't an issue, what would you do?
Caesar Kalinowski:And that, and that's good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause I was just about to, I was just about to ask, like, what's it look like in a person you're working with someone, or maybe what's it look like in the mirror even, but what's it look like?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's it sound like when a person's not believing What God says is true and they're not living out of their identity.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's that begin to look and sound like?
Caesar Kalinowski:So we can start to identify that in ourselves and in others.
Jo Saxton:Yeah.
Jo Saxton:I mean, I, when I, when people say, I don't know, really too quickly, I think I've often that that's often a thing for me when someone sounds passionate about something and they end it with, I don't know, I almost resigned.
Jo Saxton:I kind of say, what do you mean you don't know?
Jo Saxton:Cause you just sound like you did.
Jo Saxton:You just sound like you didn't know.
Jo Saxton:And then you, but your sig, your sign out, your signature at the bottom is, I don't know.
Jo Saxton:And um, probably not going to happen.
Jo Saxton:Dot, dot, dot.
Jo Saxton:Yeah.
Jo Saxton:And that, you know what I mean?
Jo Saxton:It's that kind of, the, the kind of self protective dismissal of all you've just said at the end, I think is something worth, um, landing on with you.
Jo Saxton:I think, um, sometimes cynicism, where people sign off before they even begin, Um, I, I, I mean, I'm the kind of person who likes to get behind, I like words, so I like to get behind the words that people use, and the why they say them, because, you know, as the Bible says, the heart speaks, you know, the mouth speaks what the heart is full of, and so I just want to find out what, what, what we're full of right now, what we're full of on that front, and why.
Jo Saxton:And why?
Jo Saxton:Because I think we're saying something.
Jo Saxton:Those are some of the identifying things that I tend to listen out for, look out for.
Jo Saxton:I mean, obviously there's body language as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:And as we've been discipling for years and building community and planting churches, as you have, Jo, I've found that this doesn't get, quote, repaired or sorted, uh, like in a weekend.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, starting to believe a completely different story and version and value of yourself and who God created you to be and how he now sees you and the voice that he has for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Boy, that's almost like, that's almost in the land of too good to be true, too far away kind of stuff for people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it, it takes patience.
Caesar Kalinowski:It takes time.
Caesar Kalinowski:It takes constantly reminding, hey, you're a bird, you got wings.
Caesar Kalinowski:You get to fly, you really do.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know you just walked here today, but maybe tomorrow you'll fly.
Heath Hollensbe:Alright, so speaking of that, Jo, I'm gonna ask you for 60 seconds of free counseling as we start to land the plane here.
Heath Hollensbe:Here we go.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, cause like what Caesar just said, I know for me personally, really trying to see myself as God sees me, uh, It's harder than exercise.
Heath Hollensbe:I mean, it's constantly reframing my thoughts and yeah, it's extremely difficult And the way that God sees me is almost too good to be true It is too good to be true.
Heath Hollensbe:And it's it's almost unbelievable in that sense So would you just spend 60 seconds encouraging me and maybe any of our listeners who are really having a hard time believing?
Heath Hollensbe:What's true about themselves?
Jo Saxton:I would encourage you to do a couple of things.
Jo Saxton:I'd say, um, it's okay that it's hard because, um, and these things took a long time to get there.
Jo Saxton:And I like Caesar's words about write the story.
Jo Saxton:What you're doing as you struggle to believe is you're rewriting a very old, long story, an ancient story.
Jo Saxton:And to rewrite a story takes work and it takes effort and editing.
Jo Saxton:And it's okay if you, if you take two steps and then you don't want to write again.
Jo Saxton:But I would encourage you to surround yourself with people who see the you that you're.
Jo Saxton:that you want to be, but you don't realize you are yet and let them speak for you.
Jo Saxton:I'd immerse yourself in verses of the Bible and stuff that remind you that you're fearfully and wonderfully made.
Jo Saxton:Psalm 139 has been my go to and I'd read it in front of the mirror.
Jo Saxton:I really would.
Jo Saxton:I'd commit to, if you do need the extra help to get in the work, and I would try new things because if you're rewriting a story at some point, that's putting pen to paper and writing new words down.
Jo Saxton:Um, you can't do that in your own head.
Jo Saxton:You actually have to take a step and it's okay that it's a baby step.
Jo Saxton:Babies don't run marathons, they take single steps.
Heath Hollensbe:Yep.
Heath Hollensbe:So good.
Heath Hollensbe:Jo, it has been an absolute joy talking to you.
Heath Hollensbe:Again, your book, The Dream of You, is absolutely incredible.
Heath Hollensbe:Thank you.
Heath Hollensbe:And hopefully we get to have you back on the show again.
Jo Saxton:Fun
Heath Hollensbe:times, that'd be awesome.
Heath Hollensbe:It'll take us another
Caesar Kalinowski:six years to no, I'm just kidding.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jo's a very you know, listen, I've been just finagled myself.
Caesar Kalinowski:A speaking slot at a conference, 18 months into working.
Caesar Kalinowski:I heard Jo was going to be at a conference.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was working with the same people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I go, she is, I don't, I want to speak there.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they're like, Oh, okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So they booked us in Chicago and in the frozen tundra.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then they booked us on opposing schedules.
Caesar Kalinowski:We never saw each other.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Jo Saxton:a completely different days.
Jo Saxton:I was a little upset about that.
Jo Saxton:I'm not going to lie.
Jo Saxton:I was just like, it was far
Heath Hollensbe:easier to schedule the queen for one of the last podcasts we did.
Heath Hollensbe:We had Megan
Caesar Kalinowski:Markle is going to be on right after you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we're going to talk about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that took us a couple of phone calls.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, blessings on your sister.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks so much for, uh, for being here and thanks for believing the story that God's telling about you so that we all get to a little bit more as well.
Jo Saxton:Thank you.
Heath Hollensbe:I appreciate you.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, Jo.
Heath Hollensbe:We'll talk to you soon.
Jo Saxton:Thanks.
Jo Saxton:Bye.
Heath Hollensbe:Bye.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, man.
Heath Hollensbe:We could probably do a big 33 off of this episode.
Heath Hollensbe:There's so much goodness, but we need that.
Heath Hollensbe:We were flying and yet it was so packed.
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:So the big three I'm sure you know by now, unless you're a new listener, are the big three takeaways from today's topic.
Caesar Kalinowski:These are the don't miss these points from today's talk.
Caesar Kalinowski:And by the way, you can always get a printable PDF of this week's big three as a free download by going to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so here's the big three first.
Caesar Kalinowski:We don't live beyond what we believe about ourselves.
Heath Hollensbe:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So if we've been buried under years of lies and untrue beliefs about who God's created us uniquely to be, then I just want to, I want to remind us that, you know, he's created us.
Caesar Kalinowski:you to know this and to live out of some, some new things.
Caesar Kalinowski:And at first it's going to all sound like lies.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're going to start hearing this and go, ah, that can't be true.
Caesar Kalinowski:That can't be true.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's going to sound unbelievable.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's going to sound too good to be true.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because it really, really is.
Caesar Kalinowski:But that's how awesome our God is and how big the gospel is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um,
Heath Hollensbe:yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:we, we, we get to live beyond what we've been thinking.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Second, it's all right that it's hard to believe the new and better story that God's telling you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's going to be hard at first.
Caesar Kalinowski:Kind of just said that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and kind of parallel to that is don't expect to have a perfect voice at first, quote unquote, as you're beginning to live into your new identity, God's given you a new voice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't expect to have it be perfect at first.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like it's not going to be perfectly clear and eloquent.
Caesar Kalinowski:Speak what you're now hearing from God and expect it to take some time to gain and to give others clarity.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:God loves you and he wants to hear from you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:The rest of us need your voice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's the spirit that'll make it clear and powerful and perfect.
Caesar Kalinowski:And just, just so you know, don't, don't wait until someday you think you've got your message or your voice all perfectly clear and clarified to start.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause you'll never get there.
Caesar Kalinowski:We need you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:We need your voice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then third, your voice is your identity out loud.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just said that and I'm like, wow, that's terrible.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Too late.
Caesar Kalinowski:I got it already.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just on the, uh, so your voice is your identity out loud.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't fear to try out your wings.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And try new things to say new things, to go new places.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you believe God's calling you to a new place.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like physically go there.
Caesar Kalinowski:That might be part of how he's causing you to believe something new about yourself or calling you to a new, new voice.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, if it's a new role or a new job, try that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't be afraid.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't worry about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go for it.
Caesar Kalinowski:If it's to a new calling, embrace it fully knowing that in all of these, God goes with you and he's in fact, he's already there.
Caesar Kalinowski:God's never going to call you somewhere and then leave you and forsake you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So even though it might seem scary, he's there and he's waiting for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:You
Heath Hollensbe:get to go for it.
Heath Hollensbe:That's beautiful, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Thank you for those.
Heath Hollensbe:If you want more information on Jo Saxton, you can go to her website.
Heath Hollensbe:It's www.
Heath Hollensbe:josaxton.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And she's on Twitter and Instagram at Jo Saxton.
Heath Hollensbe:Check out her website because you can link to her podcast too.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you
Heath Hollensbe:can get the copy
Caesar Kalinowski:of her new book there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can get the goodness every week.
Caesar Kalinowski:Speaking dates.
Caesar Kalinowski:If she's coming close to you, go see her.
Caesar Kalinowski:What a great talk.
Caesar Kalinowski:What an important concept to really grasp and pass on to others as we make disciples of Jesus Who is the exact imprint and glory of God and we are now his body in the world.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now we get to go forward in our true Trinitarian identity with God using all of us uniquely in different ways as he fills the world with his glory Man, that's awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm super encouraged.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope you are too.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's it for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks again, Jo, and thanks, Heath.
Caesar Kalinowski:I look forward to talking with you next week as well, as we continue to learn how to truly live a lifestyle of discipleship in all the normal stuff of life together.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.