Are Missional Communities Still a Thing?
Was the whole “missional” thing just a passing church fad, or is there really something more to it?
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, we’ll define it for you–what it is and is not–and why it still scares a lot of pastors today.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- Where the term missional comes from, and a true definition (from the Bible).
- Is being a missional church a new or old thing?
- Why this scares A LOT of pastors and elders to death!
- Steps to take to begin to move your church or community toward an abundant missional life and ministry.
From this episode:
“Discipleship is the process of moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life. So guess what? That would mean that we would have to be engaging people in every area of their lives. There’s no way to do that sitting in rows. and hearing a 30 45 minute message. We can speak about certain things, but we can’t engage and help people necessarily move from unbelief to belief in every area of their life if we’re not seeing and touching and getting a pulse on engaging every area of life.“
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Discipleship As a Lifestyle Workshop on-demand training
Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living
Transcript
What is the mission Jesus gave the church?
Caesar Kalinowski:There's only one answer, go and make disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, a missional lifestyle, or a missional community, or a missional church, would be one where they're radically reoriented their lives around the mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me say it another way, we have radically reoriented our lives around Making Disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, we've said this a lot, I'm going to say it again.
Caesar Kalinowski:Discipleship is the process of moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's the process of our sanctification that way, and us helping other people move from unbelief about who's God and what's he up to, and what's true of him and what's true of us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've talked about like our family life, our marriages, how we spend our money, how we spend our time.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so, we're helping people do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what discipleship is in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:That would mean that we would have to be engaging people in every area of their lives.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's no way to do that sitting in rows.
Caesar Kalinowski:and hearing a 30 45 minute message.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we can speak about certain things, but we can't engage and help people necessarily move from unbelief to belief in every area of their life if we're not seeing and touching and getting a pulse on engaging every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Heath Hollensbe, good to see you, my brother.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Good to see you as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Always good to do these podcasts, these shows together.
Caesar Kalinowski:I feel like we're the lucky ones where we, I get my heart connected.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:On the most important stuff we can think of every week with a brother who I trust.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is great, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thank you.
Heath Hollensbe:Today, we're going Deep into the wheelhouse, something that you've been living for years and I fell in love with a few years back and it's this concept of a missional lifestyle and I've heard this phrase missional How long now?
Caesar Kalinowski:How long have you heard it?
Caesar Kalinowski:When's the first time you heard missional?
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, am I supposed to know what that means?
Heath Hollensbe:Like, yeah, I think 2012 maybe and really yeah, maybe 13 And then I heard it in 2002.
Heath Hollensbe:Oh, wow, and like no one was talking about it But I read it like a Irwin McManus book or something.
Heath Hollensbe:It's like missional.
Heath Hollensbe:It must be connected to missions Missions Yeah, missionaries, yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:And since then, you know, in the church world, at least, this has become, probably in the last ten years, one of the most catchphrase words that everyone is or was talking about.
Heath Hollensbe:Everyone thinks they got the grasp on it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, and everybody thinks
Caesar Kalinowski:they know what it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's some wonder if missional is still a thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And a lot of people who follow my writings or have listened to the podcast or go to my site a lot, they'll probably know a lot more about this and this won't be surprising to them today.
Caesar Kalinowski:But maybe even if they feel a little more versed in this, like they're living the life they've been following along for years, um, maybe it'll help them be able to understand and break it down and describe it to others as well.
Heath Hollensbe:See, that would be helpful because I've got even friends who they're like, yeah, you know, I live really missional in my neighborhood.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm like, okay, what does that look like?
Heath Hollensbe:What's it like with your neighbors?
Heath Hollensbe:Oh, we don't, we don't know our neighbors.
Heath Hollensbe:Like,
Heath Hollensbe:I think you missed the mark somewhere.
Heath Hollensbe:Like how did,
Caesar Kalinowski:how does one equal Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't just take the full phrase.
Caesar Kalinowski:I had a, I had a young missionary kid, like 21, 22.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, that's not that so young, but you know what I mean.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, just this week he called, he wanted some advice on his life and what God's telling him to do and wanted me to confirm it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, ah, I don't know you that well, bro.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and then, and one of the things he kinda snuck in after the whole conversation.
Caesar Kalinowski:He goes.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it was almost like it was a, like a marketing option or something goes, Hey, so what do you think?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is this missional thing real?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is like it going to last?
Caesar Kalinowski:So it was not only brand new to him, even though he is part of one of the largest mission organizations on the planet.
Heath Hollensbe:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:And by the definition I was giving him, which is what we'll talk about today, he was like, uh, we're not doing much of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Even though their missions organization, he wanted to know, is it going to last?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, and that, that, like it, it stopped me in my tracks a little bit because as we're going to talk about here in a second.
Caesar Kalinowski:It has never gone away, actually.
Caesar Kalinowski:The church just got on the wrong train and headed the wrong direction, but God's plan A was always going forward.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it kind of broke my heart a little bit that this young guy, super excited about his life and giving it to God, like trying hard to give his life away for the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was brand new thinking and even as I flushed it out, so not from a terminology standpoint, but a reality, you think that's going to happen?
Caesar Kalinowski:Meaning, is God's thing going to really work and stick with the church?
Caesar Kalinowski:God's plan still.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh my goodness.
Caesar Kalinowski:Anyway.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, let's get into it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, warning, we're going to pick a few scabs today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And on some of our friends and leaders that we love and like, guys, we love you.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're completely loved in Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's good.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know, the little bit of salt that's going to land in some of all of our wounds.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thank you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Salt's a cleanser.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's going to clean us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:It stings and hurts like crazy.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right, so I remember one time with my daughter and I, we got on a subway in New York when I was living in Manhattan and we ended up like 400 blocks north of Harlem in the middle of the night and we went like, Oh, wrong train.
Caesar Kalinowski:It felt like the same train.
Caesar Kalinowski:It looked just like all the other trains.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we got off and got on and it took a long time to get back to our stop, but we eventually did.
Caesar Kalinowski:Little analogy for us there at the beginning.
Caesar Kalinowski:Love it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I like that bonus analogy.
Heath Hollensbe:I really dig that.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay, so Let's talk about missional.
Heath Hollensbe:How would you unpack?
Heath Hollensbe:This concept and I know that's a huge question.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah unpack the concept of missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:Allow me to ramble No, try not to be so I don't like to make cases semantically Okay But the word missional does come from mission and and mission and missionary and all of that comes from this idea of sentness.
Caesar Kalinowski:It just does, from scripture.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, when Jesus said, go and make disciples, and so I, I've been sent, so I send you, that sent one, sentness, that's, I'm not going to do a Greek study today, but it's this idea of, So, when Jesus said that in Matthew, Hey, I'm going now, but here's the good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll never leave you or forsake you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll always be with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm going to be in you with my own actual spirit now, and so go do everything I've done with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Teach what I've taught.
Caesar Kalinowski:Teach others this way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go make disciples in all the worlds.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, that's that sending, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:As I've been sent, so I now send you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, So in that concept right there in Matthew 28, in that verse rather, uh, Jesus gives us, oh, so much.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's just the most pactus of verses.
Caesar Kalinowski:It really is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so to say we're missional would say, Hey, we're on God's mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:Baseline.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So now every church would go, Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Check the box.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're on God's mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:Are we?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, what was Jesus mission?
Caesar Kalinowski:He gave the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's only one, there's only one right answer.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not kidding you.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's going to make disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, Jesus didn't say, Hey, I'm going now to be with the Father.
Caesar Kalinowski:Please make sure you get those timers set up on the screen Sunday so people make it into the Sanctuary on time, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, he didn't say, hey, go and be with my father, and as I was sent, so I send you, and he breathed the Holy Spirit on him.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, tighten up that worship set, you know, or, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:A
Heath Hollensbe:huge Christmas production, yeah, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:He never said that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, we get to do all those things, I'm kind of poking, this is where I'm poking a little bit of fun, picking a few scabs, but that's not missional, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:Just, uh, uh, uh, a warning, that's not missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, throwing church services is not inherently missional on of itself because it's a come and see Versus a go and make sort of move and Jesus said go and make and Make.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, just right there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, there again, that's not a slam on our church services.
Caesar Kalinowski:We, we love them.
Caesar Kalinowski:We get to, I think it's super valuable.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've talked about that in other episodes.
Caesar Kalinowski:But that's not missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, back to the core.
Caesar Kalinowski:What is the mission Jesus gave the church?
Caesar Kalinowski:There's only one answer, go and make disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, a missional lifestyle or a missional community or a missional church would be one where they're radically reoriented their lives around the mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me say it another way.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have radically reoriented our lives around making disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've said this a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm going to say it again.
Caesar Kalinowski:Discipleship is the process of moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's the process of our sanctification that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And us helping other people move from unbelief about who's God and what's he up to and what's true of him and what's true of us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life, you know, we've talked about like our family life, our marriages, how we spend our money, how we spend our time.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Last week we talked about Sabbath.
Caesar Kalinowski:What does it really look like to Sabbath?
Caesar Kalinowski:Does the gospel speak into that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a gospel issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so we're helping people do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what discipleship is in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:That would mean that we would have to be engaging people in every area of their lives.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's no way to do that sitting in rows.
Caesar Kalinowski:And here in a 45 minute, 30, 45 minute message, like we can speak about certain things, but we can't engage and help people necessarily move from unbelief to belief in every area of their life.
Caesar Kalinowski:If we're not seeing and touching and getting a pulse on engaging every area of life, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know, you and I have been, got begun doing more and more of our life together.
Caesar Kalinowski:And guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:We can see a lot more of the reality of where we're living in belief and unbelief than we used to be able to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good and bad, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But that's what, that's what missional is actually all about.
Caesar Kalinowski:So at the core of it, what is missional?
Caesar Kalinowski:Missional is we have radically reoriented our lives, our community focus and time use, our church focus, all of that around the mission that Jesus gave the church and that's making disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's at the core missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:So let me give you a few things what missional is not.
Caesar Kalinowski:missional is not, Hey, our small group.
Caesar Kalinowski:started doing a quarterly or monthly or an annual or whatever you want to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, or our church started doing the annual great day of service.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, is that a good thing?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we're going to all get together and like use the oomph of our family to go out and bless the city or clean up a park or, you know, just whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, there's a million things that our cities all need.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that a good thing?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a beautiful thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Does it show love and care and our servant identity?
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:But is it missional inherently?
Caesar Kalinowski:No, because it's not specifically about making disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now it can be because if you're out doing those things to build relationships and invite people to the table and invite them into the rhythms of your life, invite them into a new lifestyle, where they're moving from unbelief to belief about who God is and what Christ has done for them.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's Christians and non Christians I'm talking about here.
Caesar Kalinowski:then it can be missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:But the inherent small group that like studies the sermon notes, you know, from Sunday on Wednesday night or Tuesday night, and then they once a month or once a quarter, once a year, go out and like, Hey, we clean up the trails, you know, in the local hiking thing, or we go to the coast and we pick up trash, whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't call that missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I've had so many churches, Heath, tell me, you know, we've just last few years, it's been a lot of work, but we've moved all of our small groups to missional communities.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, tell me about them.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're exactly the same as they always were, but now they kind of forced them all kind of legally, you know, legalize, you know, made them pick a service project.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, I think it's better than not there again.
Caesar Kalinowski:It sounds like I'm gauging.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But this is where I'm pouring salt and wounds a little bit like, uh, I'm not saying stop doing those things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But if you're not making disciples in every area of life, you're not starting to do life on life, life in community, life on mission, then you're not a missional community or a missional church, or you don't have a missional lifestyle.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like your friend said, yeah, I'm super missional in my neighborhood.
Caesar Kalinowski:Tell me about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I hate my neighbors.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't, you know, in one of my books, I share a story of a, uh, of a couple, um, a little bit older couple that were really cool.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and they were like all about missional, man, everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:They started hanging out with our, you know, our church community and all, and, uh, getting involved in missional communities.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, um, Jeff and I had, uh, Jeff VanderStelt and I had lunch with them one day, and it was like, they were telling us all about how awesome it was, and they were trying to, they really wanted us to know, as their pastors and elders, we're in, man, this whole missional thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then I started seeing all these kids playing in the neighborhood.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was like the most wonderful neighborhood, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:People out and about, and kids.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I was like, tell me about that family.
Caesar Kalinowski:Nah, I don't know those people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, tell me about that family.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, we've never met them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Do you invite these kids over?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you, you're, like, kind of semi retired.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, I don't want those kids over here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like literally that, like that breaks and I was like, what do you mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, look around.
Caesar Kalinowski:We got a lot of nice stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:We spent our whole lives kind of like, this is our like dream house and the kids getting here, it's all getting broken and I won't have to put it up and down and put it up and down.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was just heartbroken.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But they were, the lunch was about how missional they were and how much more engaging they want to be missionally.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we said, well, yeah, but what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Wait, hold on.
Caesar Kalinowski:It wasn't that long before they kind of left the community cause they, they really didn't want to live missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was sexy.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was sexy.
Caesar Kalinowski:They liked the idea of sounding like we're, You know, we're getting hip to what's going on in the church these days and it's kind of like, you know When the small group things got started, it's like no and so like I want to say this isn't the new hip thing Yeah, this is what Jesus did.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what Jesus said to his disciples to do.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is only what you see in Acts Yeah, it's all we see is oikos's ie households smaller communities of people living on The mission of helping people understand who God is and move from unbelief to belief about him in every area of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, discipleship.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, and you see that in the way even Jesus called his, his own disciples.
Heath Hollensbe:It was a Come and see how I live.
Heath Hollensbe:It wasn't, hey, we're gonna jump into this program.
Heath Hollensbe:We're gonna do small group here We're gonna go to the synagogues together every day It was come and see how I live and then all of life eventually will start aligning itself to
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, you ever freak out to a little bit wonder why like why didn't Jesus when he had three whole years with the with the 12 numbskulls why I mean disciples, um, I mean apostles, I mean Why didn't why don't we see any evidence if he goes like, okay, listen, we've been hanging out for about a year now You're starting to kind of get it So what we're going to start doing is we're going to start going to the poorest part of Jerusalem and we're going to feed everybody.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh,
Caesar Kalinowski:or we're going to.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're gonna, uh, we're starting the new, um, leper ministry, we're starting the new leper ministry.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've named it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've got some special little, you know, rags that we're going to have our logo on and, you know, it's like whatever, like never did it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now along the way, did he meet all those needs as he ran into them?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Did he, uh, teach in the moment and always connect it back to his father's heart, who God is, what's up and what's true of you and why we just got to do this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep, every time.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there again, this isn't saying don't have those kind of ministries, don't go feed the homeless in your city, or don't serve the least of.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, we're, we're, we're called to love mercy and do justice.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the word justice means to restore.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's good, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like what was he up to?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what he's up to.
Caesar Kalinowski:But he never kind of had these programs built.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was always along the way in everyday life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he didn't try to jam it into an hour and a half one day a week on the Sabbath day or whatever.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, and that's a question that I would have for you is when I've got many friends and even some neighbors and we're all different churches and we all have different ways of what we're being taught in our Sunday mornings.
Heath Hollensbe:The concept of missional when played out of it's engaging your neighborhood.
Heath Hollensbe:They're all missional, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, everyone's missional, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Cool.
Heath Hollensbe:It can't not be anymore.
Heath Hollensbe:A lot of people have really have a hard time of treading the.
Heath Hollensbe:How do I be missional but also, uh, maintain a healthy church rhythm, um, where I go here on Sundays and I'm part of a Bible study and I really don't have time for, for my neighbors because I'm so slammed over here.
Heath Hollensbe:Is
Caesar Kalinowski:it possible to do both or what is that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, on Sunday all I'm hearing about is love your neighbors, reach out to them, include them in your life.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But then there's also the other 11 things I'm supposed to show back up at the building to do and serve at.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Is that what you're saying?
Heath Hollensbe:It's like I have no nights free to know my neighbors.
Heath Hollensbe:I can't go out and have a beer with some neighbors I swear
Caesar Kalinowski:you're at like a worship team rehearsal or something.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, that's true.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, that's not true.
Caesar Kalinowski:I practice a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just get better, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:You want to practice?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you've been doing this professionally for like a zillion years, you should be good by now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, yeah, well, is it possible to do both?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, absolutely it is, but this is where, okay, I'm getting to the point where why does it scare most pastors to death?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why does it scare most pastors to death?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's because, let me just say this, it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:I believe infinitely easier to plan out and pull off, pull together and pull off a killer Sunday service.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or even if you're doing two, cause you know, you're a bigger church or three or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think that's infinitely easier and to motivate people to show up, do your, do your band practice, show up, do the set, you know, get every claps, everything, man, it was awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, that is infinitely easier than, hey, um, radically reorient your whole entire life around community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Disciple Makers and Being and Making Disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:That is, it is so much easier, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, does that mean we have to go, well, which is it going to be, one or the other?
Caesar Kalinowski:I do think we have to pick our lead horse.
Caesar Kalinowski:Notice, if we're a church that says, because I have so many guys go like, no, we're going to knock it out of the park on Sunday and we're going to live super missional lives all week.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, rare if ever as a church, I'm seeing pulling that off.
Caesar Kalinowski:I have a few examples in my mind.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not going to say who they are.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not trying to elevate or de elevate anybody, but you kind of got to pick your lead horse.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because here's the thing, uh, think of it like horse and cart.
Caesar Kalinowski:How many things can a cart be filled with that the horse can pull?
Caesar Kalinowski:Only so many.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so what happens is most churches are going like, our cart's really full.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we're busy.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're trying to make, always make Sunday a better experience, deeper teaching, you know, more welcoming, all the right stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so the cart is full and the staff feels it.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're busy.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't have, the staff has no time.
Caesar Kalinowski:So how would the people, you know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, we're supposed to lead them in a missional life, but our cart is super full.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then the church, the pastor, whoever goes, Hey, we got to be more missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like I just read this book where I went to a conference.
Caesar Kalinowski:I heard Caesar Kalinowski speaking or, you know, Alan Hirsch or somebody, you know, and they're like, we have to, and you know, we do, we throw it in the cart.
Caesar Kalinowski:We go, Oh yeah, missional.
Caesar Kalinowski:One more thing to chuck in the cart.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But we never took anything out of the cart.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so you got to decide, And in our tribe, we say, well, we really do believe that the, that the, the, the missional community, your oikos, your extended family live in life together and making disciples that make disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:So your family on mission, as it were, is the primary organizing structure of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so we're going to prioritize that
Caesar Kalinowski:really big because that's six days a week and 22 hours.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that killer Sunday is two hours.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so let's rightly prioritize.
Caesar Kalinowski:our time as leaders and our budgets and what we promote and speak to and what our sermons are all about.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if I'm not living a life like that, it'll never show up in my sermons.
Heath Hollensbe:And
Caesar Kalinowski:so this is why it scares most pastors to death.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm just going to get there.
Caesar Kalinowski:You've got to be living a life on mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:You've got to have radically reoriented your family life, and your weekends, and what you're doing with people, and how you're meeting people of peace, and how you're intentionally incorporating them into the rhythms of your family and community life, if you're ever going to lead your church there.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so I, I, I know lots and lots of people, and I know lots and lots of churches and pastors, and the ones that are truly moving towards missional and making that transition are the are the ones where all the leadership is going.
Caesar Kalinowski:I am going to prioritize that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's my lead horse.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and then when we gather on Sunday, it's all about reinforcing that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not, it's not a both and, or an instead of, or we'll let our people pick.
Caesar Kalinowski:Do you like, prefer Sunday, or do you prefer community life?
Caesar Kalinowski:And a lot of churches like, they like, we're an and church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, Hugh Halter and Matt Smay wrote a book called And, and, and, and the church read it and went like, see, we can do both, or we can give people both options.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, go back and read that book a little closer.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not what they say.
Caesar Kalinowski:They say we are both gathered and scattered as a people.
Caesar Kalinowski:We always have been.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so can we do both?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But what's your priority going to be and which one serves which?
Caesar Kalinowski:And so what I'll say is if you're Sunday, if you're big, gathering awesome times together, don't serve the mission of making disciples in all of life and feed and equip.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and just pour the love and encouragement to that lifestyle of your people, then, then you're not a missional church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, you're just not.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and if you don't live it, pastors listening, if you don't live it, elders listening, I mean really live it, then you will not lead anybody else to do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You'll, you'll, people will just have sort of the option to do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:While you kind of focus over here on the, on the important Sunday thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I'm just speaking super frank here, bro.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, and that's, uh, something that I'm thinking about is.
Heath Hollensbe:It is the call of the pastor as well.
Heath Hollensbe:If nobody in your congregation knows how to make disciples, you got to maybe shut things down for a few minutes and
Caesar Kalinowski:rethink what's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:How about this?
Caesar Kalinowski:How about, I've done this at conferences, Heath, hundreds of pastors in a room.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll say, how many of you guys were deeply discipled, like in everyday life rhythms where you got to see how the gospel connected to every part of your life and people saw every part of your life and they spoke into it and they got to, how many, how many were discipled like that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not kidding you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Out of like a hundred, it'd be like one hand, two hands.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So like now we're saying, now go out and help your people make disciples or worse yet, you go tell them, we got to start making disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:They don't know how, cause what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause you don't know how.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Start where you're at.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here's another reason why missional, like a true missional community.
Caesar Kalinowski:True missional church focused on lifestyle of discipleship scares the heck out of our pastors.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay,
Caesar Kalinowski:and elders.
Caesar Kalinowski:No finances
Caesar Kalinowski:finances I had a kind of working yourself.
Caesar Kalinowski:I had a prof.
Caesar Kalinowski:I had a prof at a theological seminary Have me take one of his classes and he introduced me and he goes listen everything that Caesar's gonna tell you today is biblical It's true.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're gonna love it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's crazy, but you're gonna immediately go like hey, wait a minute Why doesn't my church look more like this or why doesn't my pastor preach about this from the pulpit?
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna tell you your pastor will believe all this You He'll say, yep, it's biblical, and he'll only have one problem with it, financial.
Caesar Kalinowski:He won't have a theological problem with it, or, you know, or an ecclesiological problem with it, he'll have a financial problem with it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is part of why it scares it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And no one wants to say it, because we don't want to, we don't want to betray our own hearts, but, but I, you know, kind closed doors, I've had enough people go like, dude, this is so amazing, but can I ask you like a really hard question?
Caesar Kalinowski:How do you collect the tithe?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:if they're not coming on Sunday or or if they are coming on Sunday But they're really pouring their life and their resources and time and focus into their neighborhoods and brokenness there Does that doesn't that kind of erode the giving cuz I mean come on We got a giant mortgage here on this building or we're in the middle of a capital campaign trying to expand the heck out Of this right so we can do more programming here.
Caesar Kalinowski:So back to that like you got to pick your lead horse Maybe you don't need the new youth wing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe you need to engage your youth You at the Y and at the, you know, the center in town and in your neighborhoods and at the high schools and, you know, in the gyms and all that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or, you know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or maybe, maybe the old sound system's good enough for the three camp songs on Sunday.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, just get a pro in to tweak it for you or something.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, maybe you don't need a whole 20, 000.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not here to tell It's a reorienting of how you think about everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a reorientation of this.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so this is why it's scary because you go like, if my people really start living life, all of life on mission, what if.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're too busy to come every Sunday.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, we already know it like nationally I think the average like super committed Christian goes to church.
Caesar Kalinowski:What is it now?
Caesar Kalinowski:2.
Caesar Kalinowski:3 times a month or something?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's like 1.
Caesar Kalinowski:7 or something, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I hope it's because they're actually engaging their neighbors better I don't know if that's the case, but I will say this often Often when people are engaging their neighborhoods well missional lifestyle They fall deeper in love with their own community and they really need the word Cause like, man, it's, we're on the battlefield now, like, and we need, we need to know the word, we need to sit under good teaching and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Missional churches, they never have giving problems, I don't think.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because people are like, they're all in.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're like more New Testament.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's no New Testament tithe situation, really.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a, that's your tutor.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let the tithe be your tutor.
Caesar Kalinowski:New Testament, all in.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a lifestyle.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're in, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Churches don't have to fear that, but it scares, it scares us, because we look at those huge budgets and we go like, Oh man, if I really, no, you know, we should probably go ahead and just get in like, uh, one of those programs where we teach our people how to tithe and save ten percent, you know, like ten, ten, eighty.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where's Dave Ramsey?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where's Dave Ramsey when you need him?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, that's not a slam on Dave.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll talk about him in a different episode.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe we'll have him on.
Caesar Kalinowski:That'd be awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Dave, if you're listening, send me an email.
Caesar Kalinowski:Dave, if you're listening, this is the biggest podcast ever in human internet
Heath Hollensbe:history.
Heath Hollensbe:So it seems as we're wrapping up, um, that this is really a whole new way of doing church and life than what we're used to.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, this reorientation, it affects budgets.
Heath Hollensbe:It affects schedules.
Heath Hollensbe:It affects.
Heath Hollensbe:Um, uh, timing and priority.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are some Family life.
Caesar Kalinowski:My wife will never live this way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, you know, my kids won't want to do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't want to try because if I can't live it, I be authentic, so I won't be fake.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I won't.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, come on.
Caesar Kalinowski:I spend three hours a day in traffic.
Caesar Kalinowski:I
Heath Hollensbe:get home.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm exhausted.
Heath Hollensbe:I need to spend time with my family.
Heath Hollensbe:Ouch, sorry.
Heath Hollensbe:Yep.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, what are some of the things that you see are going to initially shock people who decide that this is a way that they really want to start living?
Heath Hollensbe:And I'm thinking more along the lines of like, hey, If you start doing this, it's going to affect your budget.
Heath Hollensbe:You're going to have to reorient, time your neighborhood.
Heath Hollensbe:Go, keep going, keep
Caesar Kalinowski:going.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is, it's budget.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's our schedules.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's our family life.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's our time.
Caesar Kalinowski:I can remember, you know, working at the megachurch, many, many, many days a week, many, many hours a week.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I would drive home, push the button, go into my drive, you know, my door, my garage, come in.
Caesar Kalinowski:Shuts right behind you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Done.
Caesar Kalinowski:I didn't know my neighbors.
Caesar Kalinowski:I didn't know, I remember, I remember the day the dime dropped.
Caesar Kalinowski:You don't know a single lost person.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hate that term.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me back that up.
Caesar Kalinowski:You don't know a single person who's not walking with Christ and not a Christian.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:right.
Caesar Kalinowski:You just don't and I was like, wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:So guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:How am I supposed to lead then other Christians?
Caesar Kalinowski:This is my job.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm at the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm a pastor.
Caesar Kalinowski:How am I supposed to lead anybody else in that, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's immediately you got it.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what I'm saying.
Caesar Kalinowski:You got to start taking some stuff out of the cart.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:like what if you just go listen, I'm gonna start.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm leading.
Caesar Kalinowski:I get to make this decision.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm a senior pastor.
Caesar Kalinowski:10 percent of your time on staff, starting next week has to be outside this campus with humans.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you're not, it's not like, well, I met at a cafe with my worship leader to plan this out.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, I'm talking about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, it's part of your job, 10%.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And guess what?
Caesar Kalinowski:Next year it's 25 percent and we're going to trust God that everything will still get done around here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:What if it's stuff like that?
Caesar Kalinowski:What if you're going like, you know what, I'm going to start having a one night a week, where our small group is going to say we're going to have not yet believers over for dinner in addition to our small group time, like without totally unpacking the Bible and taking them through Ephesians, we're just going to love on some not yet believing friends and have them over and see where God goes and see if we can start helping them move from unbelief to belief about who this God is and his family and what he's like and how he created them to be right and all that kind of stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's those kind of things that sound shocking at first, but it's like if you don't start making those, You know, people come and they get the super long training from us and launch, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like 18 months long, coach every week, and there's deep trainings, and it's really interactive.
Caesar Kalinowski:The ones that crush it are the ones that go home and they live it, and then they go, Oh, this isn't actually all that hard, but I did have to die to a bunch of my old patterns and grooves.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, and
Heath Hollensbe:there's pain to it.
Heath Hollensbe:Pain to dying, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Dude, this conversation could go for five hours, or maybe we should do a little series coming up on a couple weeks in a row.
Heath Hollensbe:Shifting from traditional to missional.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, that'd be kind of cool.
Heath Hollensbe:So, as we close up, we do our Big Three every week.
Heath Hollensbe:These are the takeaways.
Heath Hollensbe:We want three things people can actually stop right now and, uh, start implementing in their life.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, and we give away for free every week by going to EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash Big Three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what would those Big Three be for
Caesar Kalinowski:this episode?
Caesar Kalinowski:Big Three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number one, know that a true missional community is the primary organizing structure of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not, I don't think it's opinion.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it's scriptural and, and anybody wants to write me and show me that that's not the core all through Acts, like, please, you won't be able to, um, the communities were called oikoses in scripture, which is the Greek word for the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:And while it's awesome that we can have larger gathered celebrations, you know, for loads of Christians, a lifestyle of discipleship with a close group of people and our friends and neighbors was always God's plan A for the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Know that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It just, it was.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was.
Caesar Kalinowski:To believe that living a life on mission, so making disciples in all of life, starts with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gotta believe that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you're a leader, a pastor, or elder in your church, your highest calling and honor is to give your life to a community that's making disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:And even if your gift is preaching, then, then still you gotta live it, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Your highest calling is gonna be that.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is a lifestyle and not a series of events or a next sermon series.
Caesar Kalinowski:This will take every part of your life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is how Jesus said we would find true life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I want to remind you to believe this.
Caesar Kalinowski:God loves you right where you're at.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you go like, wow, man, this is super convicting.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Know that you're still perfectly loved.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can listen to this and make no changes, you're exactly the same loved.
Caesar Kalinowski:I just want to remind people that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's no condemnation right in Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:The gospel is that big.
Caesar Kalinowski:So three, get the equipping that you need to break old patterns and start to lead others on mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you've never been discipled in a way where the gospel was applied and transformed every area of your everyday life, You're going to need to humble yourself and start slow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I wrote a book, Small is Big, Slow is Fast.
Caesar Kalinowski:You got to start where you're at.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you might have to humble yourself under some people who maybe they're younger than you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe they haven't been Christians as long, but they're living this way or get some training.
Caesar Kalinowski:Have you heard about our discipleship as a lifestyle workshop?
Caesar Kalinowski:Have you gotten in on that training yet?
Caesar Kalinowski:We took some of our most popular and immediate first step training.
Caesar Kalinowski:Put it all together and a whole lot of bonus materials and downloads that go with it And the response has been phenomenal.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, phenomenal.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you'd like to get that training, just go to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash training.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pretty simple, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's going to give you a big picture of how discipleship, like we're talking about in missional communities, can happen for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now that doesn't mean you have to start a missional community right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not what this training is about.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's much more practical day to day right now for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:for your family, for your close friends, and how you begin to move your church, the folks in your church, toward living a lifestyle of discipleship.
Caesar Kalinowski:So again, just, if you want to get in on that, it's like 37 bucks right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, if you do this right away, that's what it'll be.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's like nothing.
Caesar Kalinowski:So go to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash training and this will get you started.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that will be taking that first step towards that or maybe a next step towards it.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that kind of wraps us up for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks again, Heath.
Caesar Kalinowski:Love being with you, brother.
Caesar Kalinowski:Next week, next week on the podcast, we're going to be talking about this epidemic of loneliness and isolation.
Caesar Kalinowski:and looking at some of the statistics that have recently come out about that, but also how the gospel speaks to that and how us as the church have been perfectly set up to be in there and, and being a positive change for so many people that are living in isolation right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:And maybe if you think, well, you know, that's just, no one wants to come over, people don't want to do things or, yeah, but no one wants to live that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all out of fear.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we're going to talk about all that stuff with a friend of mine, Gino Kirkorudio.
Caesar Kalinowski:You've probably heard him on the podcast before.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope you'll join us for that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's going to be great.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with a spiritual freedom.
Heath Hollensbe:and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.