The Startling Truth About Disciple-Making
Discipleship remains one of the most talked-about topics in the church — and one of the least practiced. We hold conferences, preach sermon series, launch programs. But most followers of Jesus still have no idea how to make a disciple. Something is deeply wrong with that picture.
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, Caesar gets honest about the startling gap between what we call discipleship and what Jesus actually meant. What’s blocking it, why it’s so rare, and what it really looks like to live as a disciple who makes disciples. Not just a better church member. An actual disciple.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- Why we’re probably not even talking about the same thing when we say “discipleship”
- A practical definition of discipleship that finally makes sense
- Why discipleship matters just as much for not-yet believers as for Christians
- 7 roadblocks keeping you, your pastor, and your church from true discipleship
From this episode:
“The way many leaders approach maturity is to assume that knowledge produces maturity. But knowledge in and of itself is not a hallmark of Christian maturity. As Paul says, knowledge puffs up. Love builds up.”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching and Mentorship in Missional Living by Caesar and his wife Tina
Resources for missional living and group training – Missio Publishing
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Registration for Caesar’s “7 Moves to Missional Course” is open now.
Transcript
If we keep talking about the lack of discipleship in our churches for another 20 or 30 years like we have been without changing things, well, we won't have the problem anymore.
Speaker:Not because we've solved things, but because the church will be all but irrelevant and further marginalized in society.
Speaker:Without discipleship, we're left with a shadow church.
Speaker:Just a lot of religious trappings and tradition without the red hot center of the mission Jesus gave us.
Speaker:At our core, I think the church is stuck.
Speaker:And what if the common, popular understanding of discipleship is what's actually producing some of the sickness and complacency and decline?
Speaker:We see all around us in the church today.
Speaker:But what if we could do something about it by rethinking and reframing what we mean by discipleship and calling our leaders to embrace this life that Jesus calls us all to.
Speaker:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Speaker:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Speaker:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Speaker:And now here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Speaker:Hey brother.
Speaker:How's it going?
Speaker:I am loving this weather.
Speaker:That's beautiful.
Speaker:First off, and I'm loving the fact that I think, are we officially in summer?
Speaker:If
Speaker:we're getting closer
Speaker:vernal equinox on the planet that determines that kind of something.
Speaker:I'm sure
Speaker:I'm not Mr.
Speaker:Science, but yeah.
Speaker:No, but it feels like summer.
Speaker:The weather's been beautiful and sunny and kind to us.
Speaker:Oh, what are you are whatcha are you doing, are you gonna go to Disney or something this year?
Speaker:I'm actually, yeah, not, not this year.
Speaker:I'm actually, uh, we don't have a ton of plans.
Speaker:I'm gonna England.
Speaker:Are you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Tina and I sort of put a moratorium on travel outside the Pacific Northwest for July and August a few years ago because
Speaker:it's so perfect.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's too perfect.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I remember literally, this is gonna sound like some people are going like, oh, first world problems.
Speaker:We were literally on vacation in August in Hawaii a few years back.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it was like really sweltering in hot.
Speaker:You like you barely could go outside half the time.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And then back home here, it was like 78 0 humidity, no bugs, like, like for two months.
Speaker:And I'm like, why?
Speaker:What?
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:you're like, if you live here for 10 months of the crap, like you should reward yourself with sticking here
Speaker:for tonight.
Speaker:It's not that bad.
Speaker:Anyway, so we, we do have some things that we're doing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, um, not in July and August, man, we really, we rarely leave now.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Like people can visit, you know, they usually do, but that's when we tell everybody that's when you want to come.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Come
Speaker:visit if you're listening to this and you plan to visit.
Speaker:Team K this summer.
Speaker:It's July and August, man.
Speaker:That'd be fun.
Speaker:We'll have some, uh, we'll have a late night hang.
Speaker:You can come to cigars and theology with us or you know, do something.
Speaker:Wouldn't that be great?
Speaker:Oh yeah, that'd be a fun cigars and theology with whoever wants to show off that one.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:we'll just throw it out there and see who.
Speaker:Traverses the globe and comes and joins us.
Speaker:But what if it's like too many people to do it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amen.
Speaker:Be good discipleship.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:That's
Speaker:fun
Speaker:transition there.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Okay, so today we're talking about why discipleship is so rare in our churches.
Speaker:I know it's not a happy topic per se.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But it's so important, man.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well it's important 'cause it's the main thing that Jesus has called us to, right?
Speaker:And we're giving our lives to like.
Speaker:Make disciples who make disciples, who make disciples in this multiplication aspect of discipleship.
Speaker:Uh, and I don't wanna sound like an alarmist, but there are a ton of churches that have discipleship programs are paying a lot of money for discipleship, pastors even, uh, thinking that they're doing discipleship, right.
Speaker:I think we might be just talking about two totally different things.
Speaker:That's the thing they might be doing what they're wanting to do.
Speaker:Exactly right.
Speaker:So we're not throwing stones here, but we know there is a bit of a discipleship crisis and we've been talking about it for years.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I'm so glad and so grateful to God for moving the hearts of so many brothers and sisters to say, Hey, there, there's an issue.
Speaker:You know, like, we gotta get there.
Speaker:Um, and, but like you said, are we possibly talking about two different things?
Speaker:I think partly, I think in some cases we're actually trying to accomplish two totally different things, but we use the same term.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:You keep using that word.
Speaker:I do not think it means what you think it means.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So in some cases we might be talking about something different.
Speaker:Some cases we might be talking about different methodology.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Now, I also think, like I've read Kerry Niw say recently that the average North American Christians about 3000 Bible verses overweight.
Speaker:I love that term.
Speaker:That is great.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And the way that many leaders approach maturity in Christ is to assume that knowledge produces that maturity.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But I'm like, since when?
Speaker:When?
Speaker:When has that worked?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Never.
Speaker:No, like smartness, right?
Speaker:I mean, it's, it's nice and it's awesome that people understand what they believe, but knowledge in and of itself is not a hallmark of Christian maturity.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, possible.
Speaker:Paul says Knowledge what?
Speaker:Puffs up.
Speaker:Puffs up.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Puffs up.
Speaker:Love by contrast, builds up.
Speaker:And so some of the most biblically literate people in Jesus day got passed by to be his disciples.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So discipleship.
Speaker:A lot of people think it equals teaching people how to evangelize and fill his church.
Speaker:That's another thing where they go, that's the goal of discipleship, is to get more people to talk about Jesus and fill the church.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I think it's a natural outgrowth of maturity in Christ and understanding who we are now, our true identity that we would talk about Jesus.
Speaker:And if we call that evangelism, okay?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And every time we gospel someone's heart, help 'em move from unbelief to belief.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's evangelism in its purest sense because we're evangel, we're good news in people, right?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Um, but I don't think that that's what everybody's.
Speaker:Thinks they're against.
Speaker:Some people think, well, discipleship is knowledge acquisition.
Speaker:So our discipleship, it's, it's four courses.
Speaker:It's 1 0 1, 2, 0 1, 3, 1 4, 1, or it's nine weeks of this and it's all topical.
Speaker:And so, you know, week one you study this.
Speaker:Week two we're talking about prayer.
Speaker:Week three we're going ology.
Speaker:Week four we're, you know, whatever.
Speaker:You know, I don't know.
Speaker:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:Um, but others still, you know, they're not even really engaged in it, and they just assume if you're going to church, you're, you're a Disciple and you're being discipled.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I don't, is anybody believe that anymore?
Speaker:I don't think so.
Speaker:But the scary thing in my opinion is you've got a lot of pastors going through seminary actually, who are coming out with like this proper way of doing discipleship.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Uh.
Speaker:But it seems like the tides have turned because what I'm seeing in a lot of, of the American institution is very different than Jesus's call to go and make disciples.
Speaker:Uh, and maybe we could compare and contrast before we really even get too deep into this, uh, what maybe many institutional churches claim to be doing as discipleship with what we would consider healthy discipleship to look like.
Speaker:Because, uh, I don't think there's many people that actually view him as, as differently
Speaker:as we do, we say, we say.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think we've kinda already tipped our hand there.
Speaker:I think that.
Speaker:Institutionally.
Speaker:And by the way, you said like, you know, there's like these heaps of pastors coming through seminary with knowing how to Disciple.
Speaker:I don't think so.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I, I would actually beg to differ.
Speaker:Now I've only gone to one seminary, so I can't say, but I know a lot of people and I spent a lot of time with people who've been through seminary most.
Speaker:I would say pastors have never been discipled, and they would be honest to say that.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And I, I've tested this, like, you know, I speak a lot and I, I've be at a conference and let's just say for the sake of math, there's a hundred pastors in the room.
Speaker:And I say, how many of you pastors have been discipled?
Speaker:And I'll describe what I, what we think discipleship is.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:One hand maybe
Speaker:that's sad.
Speaker:Like, no, I've never been discipled, so you no wonder that.
Speaker:They've, they've not been discipled that they're not, that make, they now have Disciple shape, you know, Disciple making churches Exactly.
Speaker:Or Disciple making environments.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And I don't think necessarily that's the focus of most seminaries now.
Speaker:I think that's changing and that's a good thing.
Speaker:I think that's starting to change, but.
Speaker:But I don't know that, you know, there again, even those who engage it, they think it's someone's job.
Speaker:Like you mentioned earlier, like Right.
Speaker:Well we've got, we hired finally, we finally, we gotta do something about this discipleship problem.
Speaker:We hired the director of discipleship.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So wait a minute.
Speaker:But if the mission of the church is make disciples of Jesus filling the world with him.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So that the world's increasingly filled with God's glory, then why is not everybody's job at the church paid or unpaid?
Speaker:Making disciples, why do we have a director of it so that we can kinda like silo it off into the corner?
Speaker:It's the same thing that we do with youth.
Speaker:It's like, oh, we have a youth director.
Speaker:What to do?
Speaker:What, you know, Disciple the kids, but they're not discipling them Well, you know, they do the pizza, do thing, you know, they get, they have pizza and then some mountain do, and then they do an altar call.
Speaker:It's like, wait a minute.
Speaker:Shouldn't youth leaders job be to.
Speaker:Help train parents on how to Disciple their kids.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So their friends, their kids know how to Disciple their friends too, and then the parents do, and it's all, wouldn't that be the goal?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So as soon as we start to sort of institutionalize discipleship, where we set it aside, we give it a name, we, we hire a certain person to be about it, forgetting that the only reason the church exists is discipleship, then we're already starting off on the wrong foot.
Speaker:And that's why we say, well, wait a minute, maybe it's our understanding of discipleship that's actually producing this lack of fruit.
Speaker:Because if you think it's someone's job and then you define it as well, they gotta learn all this stuff about the Bible.
Speaker:So it's Bible literacy is the goal.
Speaker:No, the goal is moving from unbelief to belief in every of life.
Speaker:So that's, you know, our well-worn description of discipleship that we use over and over and over, and all my trainings and people have heard me say it over and over.
Speaker:Discipleship is the process of helping people move from unbelief in the Gospel to belief in the Gospel in every area of life.
Speaker:Not just connected to their afterlife, but everything, their parenting, their money, their finances, their vacation time, their, you know, I sexual.
Speaker:Orientation, their identity, how they spend their money, uh, everything, everything happens.
Speaker:That's, and so how's that gonna happen if the gospel, if discipleship is moving from unbelief to belief in the gospel in every area of life, then guess what?
Speaker:Discipleship then must have to happen in every area of life.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And you and I could.
Speaker:Talk about a few areas of life.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Like in a class, but I won't know if you're really living it or not.
Speaker:I could fake it
Speaker:for
Speaker:a
Speaker:couple hours
Speaker:and there's no way to talk about every area of life.
Speaker:You know, you have 75,000 classes.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:But if we're doing life in a Christian community that's got the Gospel at the center, then over time.
Speaker:Life on life.
Speaker:Life and community.
Speaker:Life on mission IE discipleship is happening.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Now it takes intentionality.
Speaker:'cause we all know too, you can just hang out.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And not there'd be no, not ever go anywhere with it.
Speaker:But if the gospel's being applied and people are moving from unbelief to belief, then concerning God and what's true of them now, that is what discipleship's about.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And that comes right outta scripture.
Speaker:That all sin comes from unbelief.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And walking in Jesus' ways is what?
Speaker:Believing absolutely what's true of the Father, what's true of the son, and what's now true of us by the power of the spirit.
Speaker:That's beautiful.
Speaker:That is what discipleship is.
Speaker:And I think until the church grasps that discipleship's not about knowledge acquisition or passing on of lots of biblical history and like.
Speaker:You know, memorization of ver verses.
Speaker:That's why I love that whole thing of, you know, we're 3000 Bible verses overweight.
Speaker:It's like until we grasp that, it's gonna be life on life.
Speaker:Like a family, like, just like Jesus modeled three years, hanging out all day a lot, you know?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And applying the good news of the kingdom, the good news of the gospel to absolutely every area of life.
Speaker:Then I think we were, we're, we're working from a false paradigm.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And that's just gonna keep producing what it's been, which is not true discipleship.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's why it's so rare.
Speaker:I don't think the church has grasped the real definition of what discipleship is and the real goal.
Speaker:Which is what Make disciples.
Speaker:Who make disciples of Jesus filling the world with his glory.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's the whole point.
Speaker:Go be fruitful and multiply.
Speaker:That's sort of our creation.
Speaker:Order revisited when Jesus is now go and make disciples of mine all over the world.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And every nook and cranny.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Then he says, as I was sent, so I send you and he what Breathes on them.
Speaker:Again, just kinda reminding us of the creation story is I've been sent so I send you
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:right.
Speaker:Receive the spirit.
Speaker:So I mean, it's this whole.
Speaker:Sort of bookended picture that God's always been about this, and that's what Jesus sent his church to do.
Speaker:And it wasn't, Hey, memorize this and then answer this properly.
Speaker:I just wanna remind us all.
Speaker:Little shocking thing here.
Speaker:Jesus never owned a Bible.
Speaker:The disciples never owned a Bible.
Speaker:It's, it's this lifestyle in Christ where the Gospel touches and transforms all of life.
Speaker:And that's only gonna happen life.
Speaker:On life.
Speaker:It will not happen.
Speaker:One day a week for an hour and a half sitting in rows.
Speaker:It won't happen with just like a series of four classes.
Speaker:And now boom, you're a mature Disciple.
Speaker:No, and that's, that's the thing we, the this idea of like, of the church is failing at discipleship and it's out there.
Speaker:I'm not casting any stones that the church isn't throwing themselves, but it doesn't come up because of the right premise to fill the world with God's glory through Jesus' plan to go make disciples who make disciples everywhere.
Speaker:They go, well, there's just such a lack of maturity around here.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And then it leads to this, this, this, and this.
Speaker:Which is basically they're saying is how can we manage people's sins and get 'em to be better churchgoers?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And give more consistently.
Speaker:Well, they need to be more mature disciples.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:It's not gonna happen now.
Speaker:That's not the point of discipleship.
Speaker:That's the fruit of some of it.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:But unless we have the goal.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Filling the world with God's glory, moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Speaker:Living the life that Jesus lived instead of our false existence lives.
Speaker:Oh, that's the goal and we have to grasp that.
Speaker:So given these differences of goals, or even maybe methodologies, what do you think the thing is behind the thing that's really keeping our churches and even our church leaders from embracing discipleship in the way that you described it?
Speaker:Like why is this so rare?
Speaker:I don't think it's just one thing.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I don't think it's one thing.
Speaker:Even now there, there'll be some people listening that go, wow, that helps.
Speaker:That is different than I kinda was raised with, you know, thinking discipleship is, or maybe what I was taught at seminary or whatever.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:But I, I don't think it's just one thing.
Speaker:Let me give you seven roadblocks or fears that may be keeping you or me, or.
Speaker:Someone's pastor or church from two true discipleship and mission.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Lemme give you seven things, and I wanna thank my buddy, Nick Terry, for helping me summarize my own thoughts and pull these together.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:So, thanks Nick, but let me, let's, let's just go through these and you and I can just sort of bat 'em around.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:First one that might be a roadblock is time.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Meaning like pastors and churches are saying, I'm afraid of the real commitment to being and making disciples and community.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I can see that I'm, I'm so freaking busy now.
Speaker:How I ever start to live life on life.
Speaker:And I've listened to a few of your podcasts.
Speaker:It really sounds like a family.
Speaker:How am I supposed to fit all that in?
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I don't have the time.
Speaker:It's impossible.
Speaker:Or, or I'm already, like, I've got Mondays, I've got men's ministry, and then Tuesday my wife has women's ministry and I have worship practice on Thur Wednesday, you know, and next thing you know, every night of the
Speaker:week is Slam Sunday.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so it's a time issue.
Speaker:Well.
Speaker:It's, it's not, but that's, that's one of the roadblocks that we see.
Speaker:Mm. And if I, you know, if I make a real commitment to Disciple making in community like this, I just, there's no way I don't have the time.
Speaker:And go back a couple episodes to two 15, we talk about are we too comfortable for the mission?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, and we, one of the things we talked about, are we too comfortable with our time allotment?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Next one is family.
Speaker:A lot of leaders.
Speaker:And this is, I think a big part of why the church doesn't embrace this type of discipleship is they think, well, what if my own family won't go along with this?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:In
Speaker:other words, church has always been church and our faith over there, and then we kinda live our life.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:We kinda live two lives.
Speaker:We talked about spiritual schizophrenia.
Speaker:Yep, absolutely.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so I think family is a big one.
Speaker:What if my own family won't go along with this?
Speaker:You know, like we haven't been talking and living this way and my kids are teenagers already.
Speaker:They barely will go to youth group.
Speaker:You think they're gonna start living this way?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Ooh, that's rough, man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I wonder too, like if the family aspect, the thing that we always talk about is the beauty of actually doing this.
Speaker:With family.
Speaker:Like you get to incorporate the kids as you actually are making Disciple like a, a Missional model.
Speaker:You incorporate everybody, you don't segment your life into two different worlds of That's right.
Speaker:Of like, here
Speaker:I do this.
Speaker:We talk about some leaders have a family and then they have the mission, which they call, I work at a church.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's the, I'm a mission.
Speaker:I work in a church all day, you know, but I come home and that's, you know, I check out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I have my family check my phone off.
Speaker:It's my family time.
Speaker:I don't want my family to hate the church because I don't, you know.
Speaker:So you have a family.
Speaker:Plus a mission.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Now, some families have a mission of their own, like, no, our family gets together.
Speaker:We go to Guatemala once a year.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:We help work at this one church, or we all serve together in youth ministry or something.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So you have your family.
Speaker:And then you have sort of, when it's convenient, you have a mission that you do together or a task.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:But what we're looking to have is a family on mission.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Where it's our lifestyle, but that freaks a lot of people out.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:It's a roadblock.
Speaker:It's a roadblock.
Speaker:But that's the only way we're gonna make mature disciples.
Speaker:I am convinced of it.
Speaker:Third big fear or roadblock is, um, failure before we start, like.
Speaker:If I start and fail
Speaker:mm-hmm.
Speaker:I'm gonna look bad to my people.
Speaker:You know, I've heard about this Missional thing and it's been tough.
Speaker:And my buddy, you know, across town, he said, well, we started trying to do this Missional Community thing and it just, you know, it didn't work.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, you know, if it ain't broke.
Speaker:Uh
Speaker:hmm.
Speaker:So we'll just go ahead and keep it where it's like once a year we offer these classes and we don't even do it really.
Speaker:Now we have this guy come in, he used to be a part of a church's old buck, and he kind of runs everybody through like an Old Testament survey.
Speaker:And it's discipleship, right?
Speaker:I mean, right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So they're afraid if I start and fail.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:well, I would say I, I have seen a lot of it too, with the failure of like, I don't have it all together.
Speaker:What if, what if somebody's smarter than me?
Speaker:You know, like asks me questions, I don't know.
Speaker:I can't do this right there.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:See, it's one thing to prepare a sermon and stand up for 30, 40 minutes and deliver it.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And no one,
Speaker:I have to engage the company back and forth,
Speaker:but in community and truly making disciples, you get every possible question, man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Thrown your way and push back and challenge in every bit of.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you don't always have to be the answer man, you know?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, I don't know if I, I might feel fourth roadblock or, or thing that might be keeping us from true discipleship as the church is our gospel fluency.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:You know, people say, truth be told, I've never been discipled in a way that the gospel was applied and allowed to transform every area of my life.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I've learned a pretty high degree of Bible literacy, but I have pretty low gospel fluency.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so other than if I don't, unless I'm not doing an Old Testament survey or, or a lot of facts about the Bible
Speaker:mm-hmm.
Speaker:I don't know that I know how to apply the gospel in every area of life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:well, it's terrifying.
Speaker:I mean, uh, one of the churches I, I, I've served in is you've got people that have been in Bible study for 70 years, but they don't know how to live, I mean.
Speaker:Stuff comes up or, or, uh, relationship problems or, I, I don't trust God in this area.
Speaker:It's like we're just going to another study with it rather than like, no, like how about,
Speaker:or let's go to the next church.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Bounce out.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Let's just bounce out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Fifth one might be a roadblock.
Speaker:Uh, and why churches aren't really making disciples.
Speaker:It's very rare is reproduction.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Like I, they think I don't have a reproducible way that makes disciples, that make disciples and live out the life that Jesus did.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Now you can.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:But there again, if you take off the table, the 1 0 1, 2 0 1, 3 0 1, you know, like studies like that, and you say, well wait a minute.
Speaker:All of life, everybody's at their own place.
Speaker:It's not one size fits all.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:How do you reproduce that?
Speaker:Yeah, there are ways I would love to help you with those.
Speaker:We have teaching books.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Courses, all this kind of stuff, but.
Speaker:That keeps a lot of people from it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They see the difference.
Speaker:But then I don't know how I'd ever reproduce that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And so I can't be in every group and I don't, or maybe I don't trust everybody else.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Or something.
Speaker:You're right.
Speaker:Uh, sixth one is money.
Speaker:Ooh.
Speaker:People will say, you know, if I were to somehow pull this off, and our people are actually to embrace life in vibrant Missional communities, people are being gospel, growing into maturity.
Speaker:They might stop coming to church on Sundays.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And then how would we collect their money and pay the bills around here?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And some people say no, really?
Speaker:Listen, that is one of the number one things I get asked about.
Speaker:As Michel communities mature and multiply and they've been re congregated.
Speaker:When do you collect the money?
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:right.
Speaker:One time I was teaching at a seminary and the guy who was like head of theology and I was teaching one of his classes, he introduces me to his class and he goes, by the way, everything that C's gonna talk to you now about discipleship and, and the mission of the church, I'm just gonna tell you it's all biblical.
Speaker:It's all true.
Speaker:Uh, and you're gonna say, well, at the end you're gonna go like, why isn't our church doing this?
Speaker:Why isn't my pastor talk this way?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And I'm gonna tell you, your pastor would agree too.
Speaker:He would not have any problem theologically with what Caesar's about to teach.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:He would have a problem financially with it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I was like, my jaw hit the floor.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:And the guy's like, okay, go ahead.
Speaker:You can start the class.
Speaker:You know, he just said it.
Speaker:I couldn't believe it.
Speaker:I mean, sometimes we think this, but he said it.
Speaker:And that's true.
Speaker:And a lot of people are like, well wait a minute.
Speaker:You know, like, how would we,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:I might not have a job
Speaker:here.
Speaker:And that's, yeah, exactly.
Speaker:If, if, if people start moving to maturity, if, you know, counseling each other in the gospel and marriages are getting healed and they're learning the word.
Speaker:And they're bringing in people who are not yet believers, who really don't know that much about going to a church service 'cause their family didn't grow up doing it.
Speaker:So they don't go like, whoa, amazing.
Speaker:They go kinda weird, you know, or whatever.
Speaker:Kids are loving
Speaker:that.
Speaker:So how are we gonna get the money?
Speaker:And then I wanna have a job.
Speaker:And so, yeah.
Speaker:And the last one, and this goes back to.
Speaker:The episode we did on, are you too comfortable?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Episode two 15.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Is comfort.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, last but maybe hardest at all to admit is a lot of churches, a lot of leaders go, I really prefer my faith, my ministry, my Christian vocation.
Speaker:Just the way it is, you know.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:I'm good.
Speaker:It fits.
Speaker:I've worked it out.
Speaker:You know, I've got my thing, my wife's got her part-time job, my time, my ministry, my family, my hobbies, everything's in place.
Speaker:I'm good.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I'm good.
Speaker:You know, and maybe in a few years, you know, uh, I, I mean, you know, I, we did go to that discipleship conference, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I did take some of my leaders, you know, what they do with it in each of their departments up to them, but I'm good, you know?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, anyway, there it is.
Speaker:I know this, I, gosh, we usually were so much more, I think, positive, you know, but this is the episode, you know, about why discipleship is so rare in our churches, and I, and I, I want to, you know, I want to call people.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:To to, to look at these, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, I'd be curious to ask our listeners like, which one, which one of these seven roadblocks to discipleship are you actually specifically most affected by?
Speaker:Yeah, go into the Facebook group.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And list, list them off.
Speaker:I mean, here we go.
Speaker:It was time again, like, you know, I'm afraid of the commitment.
Speaker:This would be, who's got time for this?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Or my family won't go along with it.
Speaker:So family or, you know, failure before we start.
Speaker:So what if, if I start and fail, or I'm not that fluent in the gospel so I can teach lots of facts in history lessons, but like how to apply the gospel in every, I don't know.
Speaker:Or is it reproduction?
Speaker:Like I don't have a reproducible method for this?
Speaker:Or is it the money?
Speaker:Aspect, like how does the church get paid if people are actually living this life, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and then, or is it comfort?
Speaker:Those were the seven.
Speaker:So, you know, I would love to hear from our listeners so we can maybe help, you know, and we can help give them ways around these roadblocks.
Speaker:Gospel their hearts.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Oh, we'd love it, man.
Speaker:That's part of doing this together, right?
Speaker:I think it's important too that discipleship's not just focused on those who've already professed faith in Christ and attend our churches.
Speaker:Like
Speaker:yeah, that's usually the methodology.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's like evangelism.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then Disciple 'em.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Maybe, but except we don't.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Except we don't.
Speaker:But I think it's more natural and important to start discipling people also that don't yet know or trust Jesus into.
Speaker:The truth about our good God.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:We, we've always said discipleship and evangelism shouldn't be bifurcated.
Speaker:They shouldn't be made two separate things.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If, if discipleship is the process of helping people move from unbelief to belief in every area of life
Speaker:mm-hmm.
Speaker:In other words, in the gospel, then wouldn't then discipleship be evangelism?
Speaker:You would
Speaker:think you're applying the gospel not just to someone's afterlife or their atonement issue.
Speaker:But to every area of life.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:So then that, that would be just like Jesus says in John.
Speaker:In John, he says, if you'll walk in my ways and be my Disciple, then you'll come to know the truth that sets you free.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So we see Jesus both commands, but models a call come and follow me, and they walk with Jesus for a long time as he applies the truth of who his father is.
Speaker:And you've heard it, you know, said, but I say, or you've seen it written, but I say, you know.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:He applied the truth of who his father was and who he was and what was really true of them, how God saw them, but in every area of their lives.
Speaker:Now, in, in chapter 28, Matthew chapter 28, Jesus is there with the 11, they're still alive.
Speaker:He's about to ascend into the sky.
Speaker:It says they're watching him as he ascends and subs, some still did not believe.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:That means Jesus was discipling people who weren't Christians.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:There was, there weren't any yet that term wasn't even, you know, around yet.
Speaker:So you're absolutely right.
Speaker:Like, and I wanna say don't dis, don't discount the discipling of the saints.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Because most Christians have never been discipled in a way that the gospel touches and transforms all of life.
Speaker:But don't also think that discipleship can't start until someone says that Jesus in my heart prayer and starts going to my church for a bunch of time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's just not what Jesus said or modeled.
Speaker:Well, and like what we say a lot too, is if, if the process is moving from unbelief to belief in every area, if you don't have every area mastered yet, like we are all.
Speaker:Unbelievers on the same plane.
Speaker:Amen.
Speaker:Amen.
Speaker:Like it's not like we can't bifurcate 'em as quickly as we want
Speaker:to,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:So I need you.
Speaker:You need me.
Speaker:There's different areas of our life that are more conformed to Christ in your life than mine.
Speaker:I need you to like point out the unbelief.
Speaker:I have point out the truth of the gospel there.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Alright, let's get to the big three, man.
Speaker:The big three are the big three takeaways that we want you to leave with.
Speaker:If nothing else, maybe we're working out or driving and you couldn't write some of the stuff down.
Speaker:If you want a free download of what Caesar's about to give us today in the big three, all you have to do is go to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three and you'll get the notes right away.
Speaker:Caesar, what are the big three for this week?
Speaker:Big three for this week first.
Speaker:Discipleship was never meant to be an optional program of the church.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's the primary reason we were created and saved that we be conformed to Christ and Discipleship's, not about knowledge acquisition or biblical literacy.
Speaker:It's about gospel fluency and experiencing the good news in absolutely every area of life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This is what the kingdom of God being lived out and experience now is all about.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:We will not experience that without true discipleship.
Speaker:The gospel touching down in every area of life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So when wonder why that church service alone, which is righteous and might be the best preaching ever, is not accomplishing maturity.
Speaker:That's why.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Second, Jesus died for and loves his bride, the church, and wants to extend his glory and love through us to all of humanity, disciples of Jesus who make more disciples of Jesus in every family, neighborhood, city and nation.
Speaker:That's his plan for accomplishing this great mission.
Speaker:To the glory of God.
Speaker:And you don't have to do this to have God's love, but you get to, right.
Speaker:You've say that a lot too.
Speaker:Would you get so fun?
Speaker:This is like the biggest adventure ever.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:You're not taking all your stuff with you.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And then third, um, begin to identify the roadblocks to discipleship and mission in your life.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And then ask God to grant you repentance in these areas.
Speaker:Okay, and, and a reminder, repentance is not feeling bad about our past and committing to try harder.
Speaker:It's a renewing of our minds and beliefs that we allow to shape our lives, our time, our families, our budget, our comforts and fears.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And you can get started on this new lifestyle of discipleship and mission today.
Speaker:Ask God to show you how.
Speaker:Ask him to grant you a new mind in this.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And then a way to get started.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Love
Speaker:that.
Speaker:And I wanna let everybody know if, if you've been a part of the, uh, discipleship and mission jumpstart that we've been doing the last week.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's coming to a close here.
Speaker:Um, but, but coming out of that, I opened up registration for my seven moves to Missional course.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it's open right now as of the airing of this episode, but only for like another day or two when you're hearing this.
Speaker:Okay, sure.
Speaker:So depending on when you're hearing it.
Speaker:So if you go to the show notes, there's a link to the seven moves and, and.
Speaker:The seven moves is what I do, is I, I've broken down what are the seven most basic steps, things you need to understand, like the moves of your mind and your beliefs, like shifts in belief and then moves that you master in, in the rhythms of everyday life.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And these are the most basic things to get you your family.
Speaker:Or like your church in Michel community started truly moving towards a Missional life where Discipleship's right at the center of everything.
Speaker:But it is, I'm gonna tell you, it's the front end of it.
Speaker:It's, it's how you start.
Speaker:It's the first seven core things that we teach people that without this.
Speaker:All the other fancy manies won't even matter.
Speaker:So, um, if you wanna see all that this training has to offer and use it to lead your family or community or church toward true discipleship and mission, check out the link in the show notes for the seven moves to Missional course right away while the registration's still open.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:Thanks man.
Speaker:And some people ask, well, why do you shut it down?
Speaker:Why don't you just sell it all the time?
Speaker:Because we walk with people through this.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:People sign up, they go through this.
Speaker:There's a lot of questions.
Speaker:We do a lot of coaching.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Sometimes there's one-to-one stuff where we're help helping people solve problems in their context.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Can't do it with everybody forever.
Speaker:So we open up registration for a little while and then we have to shut it down and get to work, you know?
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Hey, uh, thank you for everything you've poured out to us today, ma'am.
Speaker:It's been
Speaker:a blast.
Speaker:It has been.
Speaker:If you haven't yet reviewed and listened to and subscribed on iTunes to the show.
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Speaker:Hey, join us next week when we talk about discipleship and mission and a faith that nationally fits into all of life, because
Speaker:that's what we do.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:kinda what we do every
Speaker:week.
Speaker:That's what we talk about.
Speaker:So a little surprise topic for you.
Speaker:Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com.
Speaker:And remember, you really can live with a spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.