Breaking Free From Lies That Feed Addiction
Addiction touches millions of families every day, and the heartache and brokenness that comes with it can feel overwhelming. Real, lasting freedom is possible. But it doesn’t come from just stopping the behavior. Healing happens when we uncover and address the pain, lies, and emotions underneath it all.
In this episode of the Everyday Disciple Podcast, I sit down with author Todd Wermers to talk about moving from addiction to freedom. We get into the emotions God created in us that can actually lead us toward destructive patterns, how the Gospel truly rewrites our stories, and why you absolutely cannot do this alone. Community isn’t optional—it’s essential.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- The 8 core emotions we all experience and why they matter in addiction recovery
- How good feelings God gave us can become doorways to destructive patterns
- Why the Gospel doesn’t just change our behavior—it rewrites our entire story
- Why isolation keeps us trapped and community sets us free
From this episode:
“There is hope and freedom beyond addiction. Discovering the truth behind the lies that have led to and fed an addiction is the first step to recovery and lasting life change.”
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Coaching and Mentorship in Missional Living by Caesar and his wife Tina
Resources for missional living and group training – Missio Publishing
The 8 Feelings Bible Study and Info
The Gospel In Everyday Life Workshop Register Now FREE
Transcript
Pornography became the thing because it, it really did give me this sense of longing and belonging and mattering, and it sued that, that pain of loneliness, you know, my parents had rejected me, but what I, I never got to answer.
Todd Wermers:No, or I'll leave you.
Todd Wermers:From pornography.
Todd Wermers:And so from that moment on, it just continued to skyrocket from there.
Todd Wermers:My senior year of high school, I came to know Christ in a pretty dramatic way, but the church said no to pornography, but didn't offer a a yes to something else, if that makes sense.
Todd Wermers:Sure does.
Todd Wermers:And so I went underground more with.
Todd Wermers:Pornography and went above ground more with my relationship with God.
Todd Wermers:Meaning I thought, well, if I could just escape pornography through religion, then this underground get taken care of.
Todd Wermers:So I went to Bible college, became a pastor.
Todd Wermers:You know, all the things people hear like, sure, if I, if I do this, then it'll go away.
Todd Wermers:If I do this, then it'll go away.
Todd Wermers:And I got married and thought, well now.
Todd Wermers:You know, I'm a sexual being.
Todd Wermers:I'm a sexual creature, and for the first time, I have something that God has said I can say yes to.
Todd Wermers:Mm-hmm.
Todd Wermers:But I had never dealt with the pain from my childhood.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's going on today, man?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is is your, is your ma still out there like bummed at We say that she forgot to teach all this stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Every time I get, I mean, we're coming up, we're coming up soon here in, in a few weeks on like our nine year anniversary episode.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that'd been a lot of stuff, ma, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's a lot of stuff
Heath Hollensbe:had to teach.
Heath Hollensbe:You know, she's still faithful like in, I mean, I almost every week I get a text like, oh, this is the best podcast.
Heath Hollensbe:Like, she's just a
Caesar Kalinowski:ma Listen, just keep leaving those iTunes reviews for us.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're the best.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, today, uh, we're gonna talk about.
Heath Hollensbe:The topic of addiction.
Heath Hollensbe:That's
Caesar Kalinowski:super fun, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, you know what's weird about a topic of addiction?
Caesar Kalinowski:As you and I kind of talked about even having this as part of, you know, an episode Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it's real easy for folks to go like, oh, addiction.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't have that in my life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like, like, 'cause we just, we think only of like alcoholism or like Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Doing track or, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Super hard.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's horrible.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's a lot of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we are gonna talk about some of that today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And Todd helps a lot of people with that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But little addictions and little beha, little behavioral issues.
Caesar Kalinowski:Crop up in our lives, all of our lives, and it's, it's those things unchecked.
Caesar Kalinowski:Without the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:That lead to those bigger ones.
Caesar Kalinowski:No one, just one day is like leading this glorious, wonderful, happy, joy filled life.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then goes, you know, the thing I'm gonna start doing inject, I'm gonna throw my life away injecting heroin into my, you know, or something horrible.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:No one starts out trying to be an alcoholic.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like it's one drink and then it's two and then it's too, too many and now it's too many days in a row.
Caesar Kalinowski:And pretty soon we're having a problem.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I just, I just wanna throw that out 'cause this is a heavy topic.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But it's going to, our listeners are gonna dig this because Todd has got a great story.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and we're gonna, we're gonna get to the other side of freedom and joy and it might help some people listening.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe it's their, this is secret in their lives.
Caesar Kalinowski:They really, they're hiding it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or a lot of us, I, I almost don't know anybody that doesn't have somebody in their life that deals with heavy addictions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, heavy drug and alcohol addictions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like I, I, that's my family's background.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just to say it right up my dad and his dad.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alcoholics, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:But my, my grandfather died at 36 of alcoholism.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's young man.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's so young.
Caesar Kalinowski:36. Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's hardcore.
Caesar Kalinowski:Geez.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But no help for that other than they'd lock him up, you know, and then they let him out.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like he was like, Otis on, you know, Andy Griffith or something, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:I was like, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Horrible man.
Heath Hollensbe:But the beautiful thing is we're also gonna talk about the freedom that can be found and, and how to get through some of that stuff.
Heath Hollensbe:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:So this, this is gonna be a pretty hope-filled episode actually, so, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And
Heath Hollensbe:I don't think there's anyone, I mean, maybe there's somebody, but.
Heath Hollensbe:More qualified than Todd.
Heath Hollensbe:So Todd's one of my best friends in the world, but he's also a counselor at the Center for Professional Excellence in Nashville, Tennessee, and CPE.
Heath Hollensbe:The Center for Professional Excellence is an addictions treatment center that exists to treat professionals who's struggling with behavior and addiction issues, that sort of stuff.
Heath Hollensbe:And he's
Caesar Kalinowski:not just like theoretical about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:This guy's still a full-time pastor, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So he's living it and he's.
Caesar Kalinowski:Doing it to serve the larger community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it's beautiful.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's awesome, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, let's, let's get 'em on.
Heath Hollensbe:Alright, so, Todd, thanks for joining us, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Glad to be on today.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, so, uh, are we gonna, don't sound
Caesar Kalinowski:so excited, Todd, this, I mean, I know this isn't like Jimmy Fallon here or whatever, but we're gonna have a good
Heath Hollensbe:s
Caesar Kalinowski:gonna be good.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, would you first, first give us like a sort of a real life.
Heath Hollensbe:Working real life definition of addiction.
Heath Hollensbe:It's a pretty scary word for a lot of folks.
Heath Hollensbe:Yes.
Heath Hollensbe:How would you, how would you describe that?
Todd Wermers:Well, I think it's a word now that's becoming real popular and, you know, culture and media and it's kind of, it's not a cool thing to do, but it's like, ah, yeah, addiction.
Todd Wermers:But, you know, for me, when I look at addiction, I work with diction every day, um, at, um, a place called Journey Pure.
Todd Wermers:And my particular branch of journey, pure is called CPE, standard for Professional Excellence.
Todd Wermers:So I see it all day.
Todd Wermers:Every day.
Todd Wermers:And so I think that the easiest way to describe it is we're looking for something external to medicate the internal.
Todd Wermers:So whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, there's all these external things that we go to to satisfy this internal pain that we continue to run from.
Todd Wermers:Um, and you know, so I, that's the easiest way for me, an external.
Todd Wermers:A solution to an internal problem,
Caesar Kalinowski:which is almost the definition of sin.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, if you think about,
Heath Hollensbe:absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I think
Todd Wermers:too, another way, another a great way is that I like to tell people is I think addiction is, um, Satan's velvet glove that he uses with a iron, an iron, uh, covering.
Todd Wermers:So it's like this smooth looking thing, but man, it gives a, it gives a wicked punch.
Todd Wermers:So I think it is, it's definitely sin, but it's this like.
Todd Wermers:Man, he's so cunning and baffling, um, and powerful that he'll, he uses those things in a, in a wicked way.
Todd Wermers:So, yeah, I, I, I agree with you.
Todd Wermers:C Yes, sure.
Todd Wermers:That's super helpful.
Heath Hollensbe:So, so Todd, do you mind sharing your story, uh, in regards to addiction and how you got to where you are now?
Todd Wermers:Yeah, so, uh, I know it's a compact show, so I'll try to like, share my story
Caesar Kalinowski:compactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just dredge up some really painful stuff from your past that God's redeemed you of and do it really, really quickly.
Todd Wermers:Okay?
Todd Wermers:Amen.
Todd Wermers:So, at 13, uh, 14 years old, I was abandoned by my parents at an airport.
Todd Wermers:And, uh, I remember like the pain, what?
Todd Wermers:Wait, stop.
Todd Wermers:What?
Todd Wermers:Really?
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:So, um, and this is being recorded, so I left my parents here.
Todd Wermers:Good luck.
Todd Wermers:So what happened was, uh, parents were going through a, a pretty nasty, wicked divorce.
Todd Wermers:And, um, my mom just couldn't.
Todd Wermers:I have a, a older sibling and a younger sibling, and so my older sibling and I basically got, um, shipped off to Texas.
Todd Wermers:So when I was born, I was born at my mom and dad, obviously, but my parents, my original parents got divorced and my mom fled to Virginia.
Todd Wermers:Then I had nothing to do with my biological dad until I was in ninth grade.
Todd Wermers:This is when, this is the year it happened.
Todd Wermers:So I met my real dad for the first time my whole life, my freshman year of high school.
Todd Wermers:And then went out to see him my at Christmas, Easter.
Todd Wermers:And then that summer I was gonna go spend a week, two weeks out there, uh, for the summer and then come home and kind of do my thing at home and at the airport.
Todd Wermers:And so why I say abandoned is I had no.
Todd Wermers:Knowledge that I was getting sent to Texas.
Todd Wermers:So at the ticket counter, the, it is old school paper tickets.
Todd Wermers:The lady at the ticket counter puts our return tickets down.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:The lady swooped it.
Todd Wermers:Uh, my, the lady, my mom swooped it and said, you're never moving home.
Todd Wermers:I just remember the pain of that moment, geez.
Todd Wermers:And walking, crying all the way to the, to the airplane and going through the, getting on the plane.
Todd Wermers:I put my head on my older brother's shoulder, and I had this internal thought that said, I will never feel this pain again.
Todd Wermers:This, this abandonment, this loneliness.
Todd Wermers:Whatever I have to do, I'll never feel it again.
Todd Wermers:And at that point, you know, I had dabbled in pornography as a middle school boy.
Todd Wermers:I think that's just kind of middle school.
Todd Wermers:And at that point, man, like pornography became the thing because it, it really did give me this sense of.
Todd Wermers:Longing and belonging and mattering, and it sued that, that pain of loneliness.
Todd Wermers:You know, my parents had rejected me, but what I, I never got the answer.
Todd Wermers:No, or I'll leave you from pornography.
Todd Wermers:And so from that moment on, it just continued to skyrocket from there.
Todd Wermers:My senior year of high school, I came to know Christ in a pretty dramatic way, but the church.
Todd Wermers:Said no to pornography, but didn't offer a, a yes to something else, if that makes sense.
Todd Wermers:Sure does.
Todd Wermers:And so I went underground more with pornography and went above ground more with my relationship with God.
Todd Wermers:Meaning I thought, well, if I could just escape pornography through religion, then this underground would take care of.
Todd Wermers:So I went to Bible college, became a pastor.
Todd Wermers:You know, all the things people hear like, sure, if I, if I do this, then it'll go away.
Todd Wermers:If I do this, then it'll go away.
Todd Wermers:And I got married and thought, well now.
Todd Wermers:You know, I'm a sexual being.
Todd Wermers:I'm a sexual creature.
Todd Wermers:And for the first time, I have something that God has said I can say yes to.
Todd Wermers:Hmm.
Todd Wermers:But I had never dealt with the pain from my childhood.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:And so that my intimacy with my wife was, um, true, but there was this underground world that just never got dealt with.
Todd Wermers:And so it just kind of, the chasm between the two began to grow and grow and grow and grow until.
Todd Wermers:Um, Jenny, uh, my wife caught me on a Saturday morning 2008.
Todd Wermers:Well, Todd,
Caesar Kalinowski:Todd, let me ask you, so before you kind of head into that, wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Ouch.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, thanks for sharing all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, that's pretty heavy, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's some pretty heavy stuff and I appreciate your heart in being willing to, obviously you've shared it before, but wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Still, man, I'm sitting here like locked up a bit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I'm hearing in this though, and I don't wanna skip over it for, for myself or our listeners.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sounds like there's a thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And our listeners have often heard, Heath and I talk about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:What, explain why our primary addiction, and you use your own story if you're willing to.
Caesar Kalinowski:There, uh, why, why is our, our primary addiction is never really our core addiction.
Todd Wermers:I think because God's created us emotional and spiritual beings to, uh, or we're creative for one thing, and that's to be in relation to what God and other people.
Todd Wermers:We see that throughout the Bible, right?
Todd Wermers:And so at, at, at our core.
Todd Wermers:Uh, two things must always be answered.
Todd Wermers:I matter and I belong.
Todd Wermers:We see that.
Todd Wermers:We see at the garden where they first fall, right?
Todd Wermers:He got asked him the question, where are you?
Todd Wermers:That's, that's a sense of, you matter to me and you belong to me.
Todd Wermers:Where are you?
Todd Wermers:For me, it wasn't a GPS question.
Todd Wermers:It was a heart question like Adam and E, what's going on internally with you that you'd have to go hide externally for me?
Todd Wermers:And so I think that for our whole, my whole life, your whole life as human beings, we always looked for that.
Todd Wermers:And God had created our parents to be the primary caregivers or the primary answers to that question.
Todd Wermers:And for most of us, um, our parents, for me, obviously, if you've heard my story, my parents said, I don't matter and I don't belong.
Todd Wermers:So I found something that did matter and did belong.
Todd Wermers:So therefore, my primary addiction, uh, is.
Todd Wermers:What do I do with this loneliness?
Todd Wermers:What do I do with this hurt?
Todd Wermers:What do I do with this pain?
Todd Wermers:What do I do?
Todd Wermers:Like that's not primary?
Todd Wermers:I'm addicted to, um, to those things and, and not in a, not in an unhealthy way, but in a healthy way.
Todd Wermers:But then because that distortion happens, I've gotta find something to medicate, to
Caesar Kalinowski:really medicate the problem.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and you man, you're putting a real fine point on something here, I think, and that's.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's that all sin and all addiction is actually something that God created good in you and us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then we, we distort it or we try to fulfill it outside of him.
Caesar Kalinowski:So a desire to belong and matter.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's God-given.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Everybody, everybody should have that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's God's given you that you should and, and it's not wrong to want a matter or want to belong.
Caesar Kalinowski:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:God's given you that, but all sin, including addictions, uh, in this one, you, you know, you're sharing about your own life with pornography and I know a lot of our listeners are gonna go, yep, that's, that's mine, or that was mine.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and, uh, but it could also be drugs or work or, um, just fill in the blank, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's, it's always these things where God created us to desire this, want intimacy, want connection, all that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's good.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we try to find it outside of him or his, his order, his kingdom, the way life is set up to work.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's, that's what becomes addiction or idols or, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:For sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:So let me, I'm gonna guess that maybe once you understood that it wasn't a magic switch, it wasn't like, oh, I see what's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:My primary addiction is not really, you know, it's this, the thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not always, I mean, sometimes people can understand that, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But it doesn't necessarily immediately fix it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like click.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, it's fixed.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, no, that's for sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why is that?
Todd Wermers:Well, because I, for me in particular, I think for us, our society says feelings are bad.
Todd Wermers:And, and the church would say that too.
Todd Wermers:And now we wouldn't say that in the church, but we say that in the church.
Todd Wermers:Sure.
Todd Wermers:Right.
Todd Wermers:Oh, don't, don't have, don't be angry.
Todd Wermers:Don't be this, don't be sad.
Todd Wermers:Don't be lonely.
Todd Wermers:Turn that frown upside down.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:Like, all have, have the joy of the Lord.
Todd Wermers:So we, we couch it in such a way that's like, oh, well I shouldn't have feelings.
Todd Wermers:Like, and I should only have the.
Todd Wermers:Positive feelings.
Todd Wermers:So, um, you know, I went to treatment for three months and, uh, my mentor and who I worked for, but who I was in treatment with, my boss, chip dod, wrote this phenomenal book, um, called Voice of the Heart.
Todd Wermers:In that book, he, he says, we have, uh, eight primary feelings now that, that there's only eight feelings, but there's eight pri, like three colors.
Todd Wermers:He'd say, there's eight primary feelings.
Todd Wermers:Then he goes through those eight feelings.
Todd Wermers:So there's a. An impairment of those feelings and a gift that comes out of those feelings.
Todd Wermers:Hmm.
Todd Wermers:So, for instance, um, intimacy comes out of a healthy place of loneliness.
Todd Wermers:Hmm.
Todd Wermers:Right.
Todd Wermers:Because if I really, I'm, I'm really lonely.
Todd Wermers:I'm, I'm really longing for something more.
Todd Wermers:That's intimacy.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:Right.
Todd Wermers:So, so that really was very helpful to like say, oh man, like, not all feelings are bad when you look at the list.
Todd Wermers:Most people, when they look at the list, there's eight feelings.
Todd Wermers:Said, well, the only one that's, uh, the positive feeling, unquote is glad, but it's like, no, they're,
Caesar Kalinowski:they're all gifts from the Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I have to ask it, Todd, because as soon as you mentioned it, I know my heart and mind and curiosity wanna know, I bet our listeners do too.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are the eight primary emotions?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, sad, fear, shame, lonely, anger.
Caesar Kalinowski:Guilt and glad.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's crazy.
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause they, that sounds like seven outta the eight are just negative,
Todd Wermers:you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's what everyone says.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know what's weird too, man?
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, this is hitting my heart in pretty heavy weight, Todd.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, my wife and I both, it was, it was interesting.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, we were both raised, uh, pretty much where you weren't allowed to have emotions like you just said in the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like no one would say that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But really the only acceptable emotion, the only one that was kind of allowed in our families was to glad to be happy, to be glad.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we would say things like, oh.
Caesar Kalinowski:You wanna cry about it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, you can go in your room until you can come out and be happy.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or yo, you're gonna be, you're gonna be upset with your sister.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well just go in the room when you can like figure out how to be happy.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can come back, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's right.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm just sitting here like kinda having a kairos moment with the Lord a little bit, thinking some of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe this is what you're getting at, has to be sort of the enemy's seeds.
Caesar Kalinowski:For addiction because we're not allowed to experience those and, and what they actually got in a godly way can produce all those emotions.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we run to something else.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then we go ahead and fill in the blank ourself.
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause, 'cause these emotions are gonna happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel fear.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel, I'm gonna feel lonely.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm, you know Wow.
Todd Wermers:That, that's what we're trying to do with our kids.
Todd Wermers:You say, look, feelings are fiances.
Todd Wermers:They're, they, they are what they are.
Todd Wermers:And so let's just deal with them.
Todd Wermers:Mm. Rather than hide 'em or whether to.
Todd Wermers:Um, explode them, like make them bigger than what they are too.
Todd Wermers:So it's like, they're just feelings.
Todd Wermers:They're just, these are what they are and let's deal with them.
Caesar Kalinowski:We are learning now, my wife and I, Tina, we're learning with our grandsons and like, like our oldest grandson's just a year.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:13 months I think today or something.
Caesar Kalinowski:But, um, we're learning to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Try to name and affirm their emotions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like I know, I know you're upset right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know that's scary, honey.
Caesar Kalinowski:But grandpa's here and we can, you know, so we're trying to not just, you don't have to be, you don't have to be afraid.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, the vacuum cleaner, whatever, a dog bark, you know, or whatever, you know, you don't have to cry like, oh, sweetie, I know you're upset right now about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I remember
Heath Hollensbe:Todd, when I was living in Nashville, you, I think with one of our kids, it was like, you know, one of the most harmful things you can do is like, you know, stop crying.
Heath Hollensbe:Just stop your crying.
Heath Hollensbe:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, let 'em cry.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, yeah, I don't have a whole lot of words yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm trying to express something here.
Heath Hollensbe:And so when you, when you constantly castrate that and don't let that happen, it's like, of course we're gonna run to something else.
Heath Hollensbe:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So true.
Caesar Kalinowski:So Todd, what are some ways that you've seen, uh, men and women find victory from addiction in this sort of false replacement?
Caesar Kalinowski:To try to get our emotions healed or, you know, to get what God's created in our hearts is in a good way.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are some ways you've seen people find victory?
Todd Wermers:Yeah, so the primary way I've seen it is, um.
Todd Wermers:Through what we call at, at the center is the process.
Todd Wermers:We call it gi, give it to the process, is what you call it.
Todd Wermers:And like, well, what is the process?
Todd Wermers:The process process is threefold and they have to go in this order.
Todd Wermers:So feel your feelings, tell the truth about your feelings, and give 'em to God and give 'em to other people.
Todd Wermers:Right?
Todd Wermers:So it's, I, I gotta, I've gotta know what really am I feeling?
Todd Wermers:So I've gotta be truthful with myself.
Todd Wermers:Like, what are, what's really going on here?
Todd Wermers:Because I come from a world that says.
Todd Wermers:I shouldn't have fear, I shouldn't be angry.
Todd Wermers:I shouldn't be lonely.
Todd Wermers:So I, what we, what happens is we grow up, we distrust our own selves of what really is going on.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:And so the, the flip to that is no, like trust your feeling.
Todd Wermers:If I'm afraid or lonely.
Todd Wermers:Okay.
Todd Wermers:Like, let's explore that by telling the truth about what, what is it I'm afraid about?
Todd Wermers:And then we enter into the relational aspect.
Todd Wermers:I bring that to God.
Todd Wermers:I bring that to other people.
Todd Wermers:That's where kids do it beautifully.
Todd Wermers:They, they trust their feelings until we crush that out of them.
Todd Wermers:Exactly.
Todd Wermers:You know, I think one of the primary ways with kids is, uh, being afraid of the dark.
Todd Wermers:Uh, don't be afraid of the dark.
Todd Wermers:There's nothing in there.
Todd Wermers:Well, their, their fear is saying, no, like, I'm terrified.
Todd Wermers:Something's in this room.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:A healthy response is, let's go in there, let's sit with them.
Todd Wermers:Say, okay, what's going on?
Todd Wermers:I'm afraid.
Todd Wermers:What are you afraid of?
Todd Wermers:Oh, someone's underneath the bed.
Todd Wermers:Or someone could crawl, crawl in.
Todd Wermers:And so I, I just sit with my daughter who's six in there, and I say, okay, like, let's talk about what's so scary for you about it.
Todd Wermers:And hey, I'm here with you.
Todd Wermers:And I, I don't say you shouldn't feel fear.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh,
Todd Wermers:no.
Todd Wermers:Like, okay, you're afraid, like, so let's explore what's going on.
Heath Hollensbe:That's really good, man.
Todd Wermers:And to let her know she's not alone in that
Heath Hollensbe:fear, like embracing the feelings.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, that leads to the, that leads to that second one where you've gotta, you've gotta be able to talk about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:You like be honest with yourself, like you gotta know it, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But the second one is you gotta be able to be honest with it.
Heath Hollensbe:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:That'll lead to being able to talk to God and others, because I'll tell you because.
Caesar Kalinowski:Have years and years of like, you shouldn't feel that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:And and we've often said on the show like, we gotta stop shoulding all over people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, but from years of it, like, oh, you shouldn't feel that way, boy.
Caesar Kalinowski:You start to realize even either through the help of a counselor or close friend or God's spirit reveals it.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is, this is what I'm experiencing, this is my emotion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, to get to the point of feeling safe enough to talk about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause 'cause you said it just a, just a minute ago.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I don't wanna admit to anybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm lonely.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't wanna, I don't wanna admit that I have fear in my life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, come on, I'm in my fifties.
Caesar Kalinowski:I got this all wired.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm a, I'm on this podcast.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm an expert about everything in the world, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't wanna admit any of the seven on that list.
Heath Hollensbe:I think if we're being honest too, there's.
Heath Hollensbe:We've, we've all been vulnerable and that's been stamped out of us as well.
Heath Hollensbe:Like we go to a person who's actually abused that information against us.
Heath Hollensbe:Right.
Heath Hollensbe:Like exactly where you go.
Heath Hollensbe:Like, I'm feeling this, and it's like, oh, stop feeling that you should, you have no right to feel that or they downplay.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Or, or they abuse the vulnerability that you've actually presented the information with.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:For me, with my, with my parents, you know, when they shook, shipped me off to Texas, I'd call back home and say, look, this.
Todd Wermers:I'm sad and lonely and fearful out here.
Todd Wermers:Oh, this is what's best for you.
Todd Wermers:Hmm.
Todd Wermers:Like that.
Todd Wermers:That was the end message.
Todd Wermers:This is what, and so in turn I'm like, okay, these are my parents who they say they know what's best for me.
Todd Wermers:So me being lonely or afraid must not be what's best for me.
Todd Wermers:What's being best for me is stay quiet.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And
Todd Wermers:just.
Todd Wermers:Go along to get along, if you know what I mean.
Todd Wermers:So for me, just coming back to, okay, like my feelings are my feelings and I've got to deal with them, and I have to have, like you said, Heath, I've gotta have really safe, healthy people around me that let me have my feelings and help me deal with my feelings and, you know, help correct me when my, my feelings
Caesar Kalinowski:can go haywire fast.
Caesar Kalinowski:But what if a person says, I don't know what I'm feeling, I just drink too much.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's apparent now that I do, I didn't start out trying to, or I, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't plan to fall into the addiction of pornography, but I don't know what I'm feeling.
Caesar Kalinowski:What if a person doesn't, what, what would be your advice?
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I think most people that say that, me
Todd Wermers:included, 'cause I would've said that.
Todd Wermers:I looked at that, those eight, eight feelings on the floor and I was like, man, that's Mandarin, that's a foreign language.
Todd Wermers:Yeah, I get it.
Todd Wermers:They're elementary school words, but I don't identify with any of those.
Todd Wermers:Which said to me and to my counselors, like, man, that guy, he knows his story logically, but he doesn't know his story emotionally.
Todd Wermers:He doesn't know where he comes from.
Todd Wermers:And so I think what, what we have to help people do is let's get back to where you came from and the emotions that were there when you, when you were growing up and being matured into the man you are.
Todd Wermers:And most, 99.9% of the time, as we look backwards with people.
Todd Wermers:There's these moments in their lives where they would see the spike of the addiction because of the painful parts of their addiction.
Todd Wermers:Like, oh, I, I lost, like literally I lost my dog and so I drank, or I lost a girlfriend, so I found, you know, more partners or I like, there's all this loss in our lives, all these painful places in our lives that because we didn't deal with the pain, the emotions of the pain, then we medicated that and it just began to increase.
Todd Wermers:And so.
Todd Wermers:It's the nature of a disease, the tolerance of disease always grows and the tolerance of addiction always grows.
Heath Hollensbe:So what you're saying is, unless you're able to actually, you know, address your feelings, uh, be honest with somebody else, you're not gonna get out of this alone.
Heath Hollensbe:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:No, no way.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, no way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you just said, our tolerance for addiction grows.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's deep powerful.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was, I was watching a segment on, on a news program just yesterday, Todd.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, um.
Caesar Kalinowski:They were talking about the differences between men and women and alcohol use, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And just how they physiologically and emotionally affect men and women differently.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and they had come up with, I, I had, they didn't, the show didn't, but they, they were using a new term.
Caesar Kalinowski:They said, well, yeah, more and more women are having what they called a a d. It was.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was alcohol abuse disorder.
Caesar Kalinowski:They didn't wanna call it alcoholism anymore.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, there's a to, there's like, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it started out like I just wanted to have a glass of wine after work and then it was like two glasses of wine.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now I realize I do three or four and I do it seven nights a week.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like, holy cow.
Caesar Kalinowski:So am I, like, am I just like drunk on the floor before I go to bed?
Caesar Kalinowski:Not for that person's built up a tolerance physically, but now they're emotionally and even culturally building up a tolerance.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's not alcoholism that you drink.
Caesar Kalinowski:That much every single night of your life, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it's, it's a dis it's a disorder.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, you know, it, and, and I think they were pretty straight up about the disorder and, and some ways to begin to combat that, but it was all physical.
Caesar Kalinowski:None of it had to do with the thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:None of it had to do with what's behind that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like what, and, and they, they did it in very, very, uh, minimal terms.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, was it stress?
Caesar Kalinowski:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or was it, you know, a need for, you know, excitement or, yeah, it was very minimal.
Caesar Kalinowski:It wasn't any of the seven things on the list.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or eight rather.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Anyway, so let me ask you, what are some resources that we can offer to people?
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause I mean, this man, we could go so much, and I know you're just, you're flying, you're flying at a, you know, pretty high level for us and giving us some handles to hold onto.
Caesar Kalinowski:But it, obviously this takes time and people aren't gonna.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, in 25 minutes here today where it's gonna like, just sort this in their lives.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I think it's gonna, it's gonna begin to open up the top for some people to go, that's where I need to look.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's there's the thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:So what are some resources we can offer for people struggling with?
Todd Wermers:I think ground level basic is get into community, right?
Todd Wermers:And so I think guys, girls with addiction community for them, uh, has to be the rooms of aa.
Todd Wermers:Uh, alcoholics Anonymous Sa, sex Hawks Anonymous.
Todd Wermers:Na, narcotics Anonymous, any of the, the, the, A meetings, if you will, because they gotta get into a room where there's other men and women that are on that journey.
Todd Wermers:And some are just starting like they are.
Todd Wermers:And there's some that are, you know, 10 years, 20, 30 years down the road.
Todd Wermers:That says Me Too, like the most.
Todd Wermers:Those two words for me were the most soothing words.
Todd Wermers:The first time I ever went into an an AA meeting.
Todd Wermers:Me too.
Todd Wermers:And I was like, man.
Todd Wermers:'cause cognitively, I knew I wasn't alone, but I didn't know anyone else out there that really man did what I did.
Todd Wermers:And so to sit in a room and hear the me toos, I was like, okay.
Todd Wermers:And that helped me get to a place of community, to get honest, to begin to share like the things I would not share.
Todd Wermers:Church, the things I would not share in my small group at church.
Todd Wermers:So I got, I got to get into a room where I wasn't judged.
Todd Wermers:No one, they didn't have the solution.
Todd Wermers:Um, they, you know, if that makes sense.
Todd Wermers:Like everyone wants to, oh, let's help the attic, give 'em the solution.
Todd Wermers:Well, the solution is community.
Todd Wermers:And so if you look at the 12, you look at the 12 steps of aa, 12 steps of AA have everything.
Todd Wermers:The, the only one that has anything to do with the addiction is the first one.
Todd Wermers:The emission of our powerlessness over alcohol.
Todd Wermers:The next 11 are all about community.
Todd Wermers:And so it's not about the addiction, it's about helping people.
Todd Wermers:You know, the form the, the founder of AA said, um, the, our problem is that we cannot, uh, build an attachment with another human being is what, um, Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson said.
Todd Wermers:Now it's, I, I'm misquoting him, but that's basically what he said.
Todd Wermers:It's our inability to attach to another
Caesar Kalinowski:human being is why we, how difference would this be if, if our churches actually lived in true community?
Caesar Kalinowski:And we talk about this on the show every episode that, that we were created to live in community and show the world what god's like through that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is just one more sort of nail in the lid of that, like that we have to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we're, we're coming into these addictions because of our lack of connection and ability to experience what God's created in us is good, but the only way out of it's gonna be through community and the gospel as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now let real quick, 'cause I'm just, I was just curious, um, celebrate Recovery, that's a church-based Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:That doesn't have an a in it, but is that similar?
Caesar Kalinowski:'cause I know a lot of churches do celebrate recovery.
Todd Wermers:Yeah, they're, they're, they do great work.
Todd Wermers:It's 12 step, right?
Todd Wermers:It's, they're, they take the 12 steps and made 'em into eight steps.
Todd Wermers:They basically took the 12 steps.
Todd Wermers:And match them with the beatitudes from.
Todd Wermers:I'm not an expert in it, but that's,
Caesar Kalinowski:and we're not here to promote any One thing I, I, I still want our listeners not to miss.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's that you, you gotta get to the point of community and being willing to talk about it with people and just be honest about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which is so scary on the front end.
Caesar Kalinowski:But part of that's because we, we, we don't live in community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Once you start to live in community.
Caesar Kalinowski:The gospel says you are loved and there is a place for you and you're, you're, you recruited good and, and now there's broken stuff in your life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then, then you can finally get to start to get to a place where you can be honest about all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's right.
Heath Hollensbe:So, Todd, we're running outta time here, uh, but we wanna get to the big three and those are the three takeaways we want people leaving with right now.
Heath Hollensbe:You can get those for free by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Todd, what are the big three for this week?
Todd Wermers:I think the first one is, you know, to what length are you willing to, uh, get help?
Todd Wermers:To get the solution for your recovery.
Todd Wermers:And anything that you're saying you won't do is the very thing that will keep you from getting the help you need.
Todd Wermers:So I'd say that one first.
Todd Wermers:The, it's the willingness.
Todd Wermers:So like
Caesar Kalinowski:if
Todd Wermers:someone
Caesar Kalinowski:says, I'm not willing to talk to others about it,
Todd Wermers:that's right.
Todd Wermers:Then,
Caesar Kalinowski:okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:They just cut themselves off right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Todd Wermers:Or I'm not willing to quit my job, or I'm not willing to go to a meeting, or I'm not willing to, you fill in the blank.
Todd Wermers:I, it's gotta start with willingness.
Todd Wermers:That's the first one.
Todd Wermers:Willingness.
Todd Wermers:The second one is how well do you know your own story?
Todd Wermers:And so yes, cognitively wait.
Todd Wermers:Can you go back and like put the feelings to your own story and the pain of your own story?
Todd Wermers:Then the third takeaway is, who else in your life knows that story?
Todd Wermers:Your story?
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I've seen such false, you know, community and story where people say like, oh yeah, we know everybody's, you know, in our small group at our church, we all know each other's story.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, tell me it, it's like, well, they're from Chicago and he works, you know, at Amazon, and they're, they got three kids.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like, no, those are facts.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not someone's story.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, and I, I wanna encourage our listeners that connected to addiction and just in, in light of.
Caesar Kalinowski:All of that we've been talking about today.
Caesar Kalinowski:True.
Caesar Kalinowski:Truly knowing your story and knowing the story of of others and providing a safe place for that to happen is knowing their story well enough to know where their unbelief in the gospel lies.
Caesar Kalinowski:Amen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where their emotions are being falsely filled in, or they're creating a self apart from God and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's knowing someone's story.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not just some facts about their life and where they grew up and how many kids they have, and, you know, yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, that's, that's part of the story, but that's not the stuff.
Todd Wermers:Yeah.
Todd Wermers:We, we just gotta get to a place in our story where the gospel intersects our story and redeems the story.
Todd Wermers:I mean, that is, the gospel is redemption.
Todd Wermers:And so there is redemption for me of being abandoned.
Todd Wermers:I can look back and see God's redemptive work in that.
Todd Wermers:And because of that part of my story, uh, I am where I am today.
Todd Wermers:Like, and I tell people this all the time, I don't wish.
Todd Wermers:Pornography addiction on anybody, but I don't want anyone gonna take it from me either, because my addiction is the thing that gets me on my face before a God every day says, God, I'm powerless over this, and without you, my life becomes unmanageable.
Todd Wermers:So I need you.
Todd Wermers:I need the gospel.
Todd Wermers:To answer the yeses in my life where I've historically looked to pornography for those answers.
Todd Wermers:And so the gospel intersects into each part of my story and says, this is what's true about you.
Todd Wermers:This is what's true about you.
Heath Hollensbe:That's so good, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Wow.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks man.
Heath Hollensbe:That is so good.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Todd, thanks again for joining us, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Todd Wermers:it's a pleasure man.
Todd Wermers:I'd love to do it again.
Heath Hollensbe:And if you're not on our Facebook group, you can go there by jumping on Facebook, typing in the search bar Everyday Disciple Podcast, and uh, we'll approve you to the group.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com and remember, you really can live with a spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.