How To Identify Your Best Leaders
Whether it’s in your church, non-profit, or missional community, growth requires you to develop your next generation of leaders. How will you know who they are? Is everyone really a leader? Could you be wasting your time developing the wrong people?
In this episode, Caesar and Heath talk about how to effectively identify your best leaders. We’ll show you what to look for and how to spot faithful, servant leaders that are right in your midst already.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
- A new paradigm for developing people in community.
- How discipleship and leadership development work together.
- 3 Questions to ask yourself to know who specifically to develop as leaders.
- 5 Qualities you want to look for in anyone you place in a position of leadership.
From this episode:
“Competency is something that can be developed in any person who has character and capacity. In my experience, those with high capacity are continuous learners and develop new competencies all the time. I put competency at the end of the list because, to be honest, it is something of a “second-tier” concern. It matters, but not as much as the others.”
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Free Download of the Big 3 For Episode #360
Who Are Your Next Leaders? (w/5 Cs) FREE Download
Caesar’s website with loads of free discipleship resources.
Missio Publishing – More Missional Books and Resources
Transcript
CaesarWhether it's in your church, or nonprofit, or your community on mission, when you're looking for leaders to whom to give more of your time and focus, ask yourself these questions: 00:00:00
Who are those men and women around you that are leaning in to everything you do as a leader?
CaesarWhether it's in your church, or nonprofit, or your community on mission, when you're looking for leaders to whom to give more of your time and focus, ask yourself these questions: 00:00:15
Who are those that are always looking to lend you a hand or serve others in the organization?
CaesarWhether it's in your church, or nonprofit, or your community on mission, when you're looking for leaders to whom to give more of your time and focus, ask yourself these questions: 00:00:20
And which people take what you teach and really run with it and apply it to their lives and immediately share these things with those around them?
CaesarWhether it's in your church, or nonprofit, or your community on mission, when you're looking for leaders to whom to give more of your time and focus, ask yourself these questions: 00:00:27
Those are the ones you really want to start pouring into.
CaesarWhether it's in your church, or nonprofit, or your community on mission, when you're looking for leaders to whom to give more of your time and focus, ask yourself these questions: 00:00:30
These are the ones who will be a pleasure to lead and give your life to because they're hungry and they're faithfully.
Heath:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple podcast where you learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle, this is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath:And now here's your host Caesar.
Heath:Kalinowski.
Caesar:Hey, good to be back with you.
Caesar:We're just coming off an amazing.
Caesar:Great weekend.
Caesar:Our oldest grandson Patton just turned five years old this weekend.
Caesar:I can't even believe it.
Caesar:How's that even possible when Tina and I are only like 40 years old.
Caesar:Oh, it really is true.
Caesar:The older you get the year seem shorter and the days feel a lot longer.
Caesar:It's so true.
Caesar:And we also had a pretty cool, full blown.
Caesar:Team K birthday dinner for one of the sisters in our oikos this weekend...
Caesar:love her so much, so much fun.
Caesar:I love this life that we live here in the kingdom of God.
Caesar:Pretty amazing, hope you had a good weekend as well.
Caesar:Hope your week is going great.
Caesar:Pretty excited to talk to you about this leadership development.
Caesar:Keep going.
Caesar:We've been talking about that.
Caesar:The last couple episodes from different perspectives in our coaching.
Caesar:We've been really encouraged lately by the growth we're seeing in many of the churches in Missional communities this past year, churches and leaders were working with, and we had predicted this by God's grace, that this was going to happen as we started to come out of the pandemic.
Caesar:People and those leaders in those churches who were leaning into community, being a bright hope, a light during all the weirdness, they were going to see that rebound effect.
Caesar:And lots of people want hangout and be around them.
Caesar:And people are thinking about serious things and all that.
Caesar:So I'm not too surprised that for the churches who were leaning into community and discipleship, they're actually seeing a lot of growth these days.
Caesar:So that's amazing.
Caesar:And with growth comes the need for more leaders.
Caesar:Talk a little bit about this in each of the past two episodes of the podcast.
Caesar:But today I want to dive a whole lot deeper into who you should be spending your best time with developing as leaders and how will you know who those people are and they're around you, but maybe you've not noticed them before, or maybe you've picked wrong people.
Caesar:So perhaps you've started to shy away from leadership development, especially in the last year or two with.
Caesar:Maybe some downsizing or budget constraints or less people around if you haven't been out leaning into community.
Caesar:And so maybe you've just opted to do more of the work yourself, which will not only kill you eventually, but it's also stifling your community growth and the maturity of your leaders.
Caesar:And that may be killing the very thing you want.
Caesar:So I had a conversation with my buddy.
Caesar:Heath Hollandsbeabout all of this and it will give you very actionable steps right now and into the future when identifying and developing leaders while embracing growth, take a listen.
Caesar:It is pretty easy to get lost in the weeds of giving your time to, you know, like the wrong people, people that are either just whining about everything or they're the people that are in the way back machine.
Caesar:They just want to take you back to the way everything used to be or something like that.
Caesar:And they can't see the future.
Caesar:Um, or you just got people.
Caesar:Purely.
Caesar:Um, they're just not really teachable.
Caesar:They're not leaning in, and it's, it's really easy, especially if you love people.
Caesar:And I hope we all do.
Caesar:It's easy to get kind of sucked into given all of your best time to people that aren't actually going to produce fruit in the vineyard, so to speak.
Caesar:So this I think is a super important topic for if you're.
Caesar:Running a business.
Caesar:If you're at a church and you're in charge of like, you know, any kind of level of volunteers and you're building out people and trying to build out teams, if you lead at a church, uh, if you're involved in ministry, if you're a church planner, oh my goodness, this is super important.
Caesar:So I think a lot of people might write a want to go on a two now, like, nah, I don't have to develop any leaders.
Caesar:It's like, well, maybe not, but chances are yes, you do actually.
Caesar:So anyway, I'm excited to talk
Heath:about it.
Heath:So right off the bat, it does say.
Heath:If you're prone to find negativity quickly, the concept of developing the right people sounds a little bit shrewd.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:Are there really people in your life that God might not want you wasting your time?
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:Or even the concept wasting your time.
Heath:And I
Caesar:know like all the really shepardy super nice people listening to the podcast today.
Caesar:They're like, wow, this sounds right away.
Caesar:Hard.
Caesar:They're picking up their stones.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:They're picking up their stones.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So I want to say it's like, well, wasting your time with people does sound pretty shrewd.
Caesar:I like to flip that around actually and say, who are the people that you should be investing time in?
Caesar:That will actually be a good stewardship of your time resource.
Caesar:And it will be good kingdom investment.
Caesar:And I want to point out that what I'm suggesting here is connected to leadership development, which is actually deeper level discipleship.
Caesar:That's really what that is.
Caesar:So I'm not talking about, uh, who should you hang out with or be friends with or should you rank people or rate people I'm saying is when you look at trying to multiply yourself, develop yourself so that others can do what you do and see multiplication happen either in community or in ministry life, or even build up teams and businesses, wherever who are those people.
Caesar:That you should be developing
Heath:this episode is for everybody then.
Heath:Cause it's not just businessmen, trying to figure out who to employ the next.
Heath:We're all called to disciple, making
Caesar:exactly and leadership development.
Caesar:Like I'm sure people have heard me say many times is just discipleship, further up the slope.
Caesar:And so how do you know then who do you take further?
Caesar:And that's what we want to talk about today.
Caesar:So,
Heath:um, in one of your past teachings that actually spurred this conversation on a, you had mentioned this concept of the crop versus.
Heath:The yeast.
Heath:And I thought that was super helpful when thinking through a leadership development or even discipleship making.
Heath:Can you speak and maybe unpack that concept a little bit for those who'd be unfamiliar
Caesar:with it.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Crop versus yeast.
Caesar:Awesome.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:What I want to say is that, um, often.
Caesar:When let's just, I'll give you an example of like in a Missional Community or in a, in a, maybe a, a setting where you're developing people.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Like, so let's say community, um, we love people.
Caesar:And so what we're trying to do is trying to raise up a crop of people, meaning like we're looking across our field and we're noticing, you know, that it's all full of these shoots.
Caesar:The crop is growing and we want to see everybody get there.
Caesar:We want to see everybody developed to their fullness and we want to just see everybody.
Caesar:Develop and mature.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:It sounds great.
Caesar:But the truth is, as we look across our field, um, our crop, we, we, that some people aren't growing as fast as others, they're not as mature.
Caesar:They don't have the same level of capacity or intentionality.
Caesar:They're not really leaning in to being developed.
Caesar:They're kind of okay with where they are at.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And we love those people, but there is a difference just being really, really honest.
Caesar:And so I want to say less instead of trying to figure out a way to have like a one size fits all, raise up the crop.
Caesar:Let me let let's flip the metaphor to looking for yeast that could be in the dough instead.
Caesar:So like, if you look at your crop, you're going to notice there's out of, let's say a hundred people or 10 people, whatever.
Caesar:There's some percentage, a small percentage of people that are really fast growing shoots, let's consider them yeast.
Caesar:And what if we gave our best time to them?
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:From a leadership standpoint, not how much we love them.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But we gave them the best part of our leadership time.
Caesar:And it's an increased time over and above what we do with everybody else.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But we, we, we see them as yeast to be developed and then put back into the dough of community, which then further yeasts and grows the whole.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:So instead of looking at how do we raise a crop and get like everybody in our church or everybody in our department or whatever, to kind of move at the same pace, because everybody's a leader, not everybody's the same type of leader.
Caesar:I want to say.
Caesar:Let's flip that and look for the yeasty people, because here's the thing too.
Caesar:He, those people, and you think about them in your own life right now.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You already.
Caesar:I think about those people that are leaning in.
Caesar:I mean, you know, you say, Hey, I want you to read this book and I want to talk about it.
Caesar:And they read the book and they come back to you with notes.
Caesar:Or when you say, Hey, could you give me a hand with this on Saturday?
Caesar:Like yeah, what time one o'clock great.
Caesar:They're there.
Caesar:And they don't, they're not trying to skate out and get out of it or leave it.
Caesar:If there's those, some people that just lean in there yes.
Caesar:Is a yes.
Caesar:And you can count them.
Caesar:They're actually a pleasureto lead.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:They're a pleasure to spend time with and develop because you can see the return on your investment.
Caesar:And if that sounds true to people like, go check out what Jesus said about investment.
Caesar:You know what I mean?
Caesar:Because, because this is the kingdom and we are called to steward all things.
Caesar:And that includes our time and our best efforts.
Caesar:And so those people are a pleasure to lead.
Caesar:And here's another thing to keep in mind.
Caesar:I've seen it happen.
Caesar:Try and make sure that no one gets left behind.
Caesar:We're going to raise a crop.
Caesar:We're going to move at the speed of sort of the slowest growing shoots in our crop.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:What happens is we end up kind of giving the whole process, a haircut down to the slowest growing shoots.
Caesar:And now we're not really moving.
Caesar:We're not really out on mission.
Caesar:We're not really maturing.
Caesar:We're not really going much deeper into our knowledge of the gospel and the word and how the kingdom functions.
Caesar:In trying to.
Caesar:Love everybody.
Caesar:You actually just slowed the whole thing down to those people that probably aren't going to get there anyway.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And then those few yeasty people, those faster growing shoots, they're kind of asking.
Caesar:Well, what's going on.
Caesar:Is this, is this all there is, is this what I signed up for?
Caesar:I thought we were going to change the world together.
Caesar:And so they actually, they go, they'll go looking, they'll find the adventure.
Caesar:You know what I mean?
Caesar:They'll find the cause worth giving their life to.
Caesar:And so you think you're actually loving people by giving everything a hair cut in your crop, down to the slowest, go and shoots and kind of teaching or developing at their pace.
Caesar:But in fact, you're not, you're actually losing those strongest.
Caesar:Most faithful leaders, and then you don't have them to be back in the dough to help raise up the balance.
Caesar:Okay.
Heath:You know what I mean?
Heath:You're absolutely right.
Heath:There's a time where people that have the tenacity and are excited and want to buy into something
Heath:they're done with waiting.
Heath:They're done
Heath:with people dragging their heels.
Caesar:Now's the time I thought you were the one that was going to lead us there.
Caesar:Develop us.
Caesar:Let's go.
Heath:Yeah, it should be an
Heath:adventure.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:So, um, let me stop you there and ask a question that kind of is in the back of my head.
Heath:If I wanted to find something maybe negative out of what you're saying.
Heath:I assume like what about the folks that are negative?
Heath:I'm always negative.
Heath:What about the folks that are maybe on a different journey?
Heath:Like someone who might be new to the faith or not totally bought in, or maybe just slower to mature, slower to develop.
Heath:I can imagine that to some of the listeners.
Heath:You might be suggesting that we're sort of supposed to ditch them and maybe go for the goal there, go for the, the cream of the crop.
Heath:Uh, what would you say to that sort of
Heath:objection,
Caesar:I guess I kind of already tipped my hand there.
Caesar:Heath, first off, let me just repeat it.
Caesar:So everyone hears it.
Caesar:We want to love and value all people.
Caesar:This.
Caesar:Jesus taught that like, don't be a respecter of people's abilities or their money.
Caesar:So we're going to love all people the same.
Caesar:Everyone's an image bear, and they're deserving of love and our time and respect.
Caesar:This is a leadership paradigm and perspective that I'm speaking to here.
Caesar:And I've actually found, I kind of said this already.
Caesar:I've found time.
Caesar:And again, that the best way to truly love and care for the most amount of people in your church or in your community, or even at work for that matter is not to spread yourself thinner and thinner.
Caesar:And thinner where everyone gets this little dribble of your time and attention, but it's to pour into those yeasty folks that will then in turn lead and develop others within the community.
Caesar:That's good.
Caesar:And I know in my busiest of times, when my leadership was probably rated at its worst part, what was going on is I had not developed those yeasty people took to the point of actually helping carry the load of developing others to maturity.
Caesar:And people started feeling.
Caesar:I'm getting like one, 1000 of your attention and your affection today.
Caesar:And I'm like, yeah, you know what?
Caesar:Because actually, if I did the math, it's probably like half that there's just too much.
Caesar:I can't spread myself any thinner.
Caesar:And so you're coming up to me with an actual need or concern or idea or whatever, and I'm having to deal with you in the one, 1000.
Caesar:So my attention and affection time I have, so it's not really loving people just to keep spreading ourselves thinner and thinner.
Caesar:And so I know like a lot of people are listening in who are like working at a church and they say, that's my whole life.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And I'm telling you, this is the solution is to flip the metaphor.
Caesar:Don't try to raise a crop and be all things to all men in that sense.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Look for the yeasty people, those faster growing shoots and give your best time to them.
Caesar:And they will actually yeast the rest of the dough along with you.
Caesar:And that's how you're going to that's how you gonna love and bless the most people.
Caesar:So I don't think.
Caesar:I don't think it's less loving.
Caesar:In fact, I think it's way more loving
Heath:when I think when you tie it into, uh, even the way that Jesus modeled his ministry philosophy.
Heath:Um, yep.
Heath:We can say that he made himself available to everybody, but it's just not true.
Heath:I mean, he was always open.
Heath:He was always teaching people, but he really did have his, his tribe of 12 and even closer circle that the, the three.
Heath:That got to spend the most time with
Heath:him and even the one,
Heath:even one and John there.
Heath:So it seems that, um, Jesus actually was maybe more concerned with developing the smaller groups, uh, and then sending that yeast out.
Heath:Kind of like you've been talking about, do you think that pragmatically, this approach is still the best way of doing things in our 21st century busy context?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:We'll have to say yes, because if Jesus did it, you know, timeless, I, I still, I do think it is for kind of all the reasons stated.
Caesar:And I like to remind people that Jesus preached to the crowds.
Caesar:So, but we don't see that, that often we see like sermon.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:Couple other times it's referenced.
Caesar:There was a whole lot of people hanging around.
Caesar:So we know he did that.
Caesar:He preached to the crowds, but he taught those that would show up consistently and listen.
Caesar:And that, that kind of, you know, we have that number of maybe 120 people that were kind of around all the time.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:But then we see that he gave the bulk of his time to just a dozen men.
Caesar:And like you said, even, even like a finer tuning down to three, that he really gave quality time, he developed and discipled them in such a way that he could see them in action, answer their questions and all of that while they were doing life together.
Caesar:And then he sent out this maturing yeast to affect and transform the rest of the world.
Caesar:And you know what it worked cause we're living proof today that Jesus, his method and his focus on the few.
Caesar:That in turn, develop the next and on and on worked.
Caesar:I mean, otherwise we wouldn't be here as disciples of Jesus.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like if it would've been like, well that can't possibly work, that's not enough people.
Caesar:He should have developed the 3000 or the 5,000 that he fed.
Caesar:Would never have happened.
Caesar:He'd have been spread too thin.
Caesar:It wouldn't happen.
Caesar:So Jesus focused on that dozen and he sent them out to transform the world and here it is multiple layers in generations and thousands of years later and it worked and it still works.
Caesar:I really, I think it's still works today and it seems so counter Heath to some of our hearts.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:There's just so much need it's so much need, remember we're not talking about loving people.
Caesar:W w we'll kind of, we are, we're talking about developing leaders, but if you want to love everybody, well, develop more leaders.
Caesar:Jesus said we're going to get to do everything he did and greater things.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:What are the greater things by multiplying out more and more disciples, then more and more people get to hear the good news they get developed to maturity.
Caesar:They get the gospel applied to all of life.
Caesar:And there's no way I can do that.
Caesar:I can't apply the gospel to like zillions of people's lives.
Caesar:I can't disciple that many people truly deep to maturity in their life.
Caesar:If I really want to have a bigger impact, do the greater works, it has to be developing a few to fuller maturity.
Caesar:The at the end can do the same thing.
Heath:Did you say, um, cause I think if you were to look at the typical American church.
Heath:we've got it Somehow reversed, uh, based off this model, because now we've got a
Caesar:lot of, even as a goal, sometimes let's just get a ton of people in here.
Caesar:Yeah, absolutely.
Heath:We can help them up.
Heath:Or you look at like, uh, you know, a Christmas program at a big church and it's like now the goal of the staff is to get people here so that the pastor can say that the word.
Heath:That do the ultimate work.
Heath:And we've actually designed so many of our modern day churches to be under the leadership of one person.
Heath:You're seeing church planners burnout because of it, because of the weight of trying to develop hundreds of people isn't working.
Heath:So how does this paradigm shift the way that we develop leaders and the models that we currently have in the typical American church, when you're looking at different types of small group methods or discipleship methods, what would you say.
Caesar:Well, I think it's, yeah, I that's exactly what I've experienced and I helped build and propagate for years.
Caesar:It's sort of the one size fits all approach and yeah, not super effective.
Caesar:Um, it seems that most leaders are looking for resources or programs that their entire church or business or department can engage in.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:That's what they're looking for.
Caesar:And when we develop all kinds of different resources, right.
Caesar:In our ministry but so often they're like, oh, we love this, but there's no way I could . Do this with everybody at our church.
Caesar:And like, well, why is that?
Caesar:They're like, well, because they're not all mature in her for that.
Caesar:Bingo.
Caesar:Exactly.
Caesar:So, so, so you know what, they're always there.
Caesar:They're solution always is.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:I'll go with something, a little dumbed down so that everybody can kind of tag along.
Caesar:I'm like, yeah, but what about the mature people?
Caesar:They don't need one-on-one they don't
Heath:goes back to what you were saying at the beginning of the episode.
Heath:Right, right.
Heath:Those
Caesar:guys.
Caesar:And so that's what they're looking for.
Caesar:They're looking for something that everybody can engage in and they do it a lot.
Caesar:Um, but they rarely have sort of deep dive leadership development worked out for key yeasty leaders who, who can then reproduce everything and make more and more disciples and see new gospel.
Caesar:centered community is formed.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:Oh, there again, let's take this into a business model.
Caesar:I need, I need to work on something.
Caesar:That's going to develop everybody in my company.
Caesar:around Feeling more like a community or customer service.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But some people just aren't given to it.
Caesar:Some people aren't given to those types of conversations, they're not natural storytellers.
Caesar:What if you found those yeasty people in your company and you said, you know what, I'm going to go deep with them and I'm going to get them some story, brain training, and I'm going to, I'm going to develop them.
Caesar:And by the way, they talk and share stories.
Caesar:The whole culture of our, our business will change.
Heath:Everybody buys in,
Caesar:everybody gets it, but no I'll do is I get something where everybody can feel like, yeah, we did it.
Caesar:And I did a little team building weekend and it was really nothing bigger, deep changed, go change five or six key people who are influencers in your, in your community or in your company, you'll change the whole culture.
Caesar:So again, preach to the crowds, teach those who will show up for that, but then look for the yeast and the dough that will then in turn lead and disciple others
Caesar:. That's great,
Heath:man.
Caesar:And I know some of you are listening and you're like, well, we don't have that big a community.
Caesar:Or maybe you're, you're listening through the lens of a Missional Community.
Caesar:You you're like, there's only like five or six of us couples.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:This is still going to apply.
Caesar:Trust me, because it's just a proportional thing.
Caesar:So there might be one or two people that you go, I really need to start developing them.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like I want him to start pouring into them and giving them our best time and let him have responsibility.
Caesar:If you're in a church of 500, then there's, there's probably a dozen of these people, at least.
Caesar:And if you're in a giant church, wow.
Heath:Over the course of our friendship and the various things we've done from either the podcast or cigars and theology, different things like that, the, the oikos group, uh, you've, you've done a really good job of identifying potential leaders, people that are pressing in.
Heath:And I'm kind of curious.
Heath:How do you do that?
Heath:Like, how do you, how do you as Caesar identify your next leaders and not waste a ton of time investing in people that, you know, might not be ready for it, or might not be willing to be up to the challenge.
Heath:I'm just kind of curious how you, how you designate those.
Caesar:Thanks for asking.
Caesar:Thanks for those nice words.
Caesar:Um, it's not a perfect process, but I have found over time, like lots of different ministry and loads of dozens of businesses and things like that that are, that there are, I've noticed patterns, right?
Caesar:So who are those men and women around you that are leaning in and as they want to be around and everything you do as a leader, they're like, they're going to default to like, I'm with you, right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like I'm looking, I'm looking for those people versus theEeyores that are like, oh, this is not a I don't, why would we like, not those people.
Caesar:That's not who I'm generally looking for first.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:Uh, who are those who are always looking to lend a hand and either help you serve, or they're always looking to serve others.
Caesar:That's just, they do, there's a real maturity in that there's humility.
Caesar:Which people take what you teach and then really run with it.
Caesar:They don't have to challenge everything before giving it a spin, but they're like, well, all right, I trust you.
Caesar:Let's, let's start applying that to our lives.
Caesar:And then they immediately start sharing that with others.
Caesar:Those are the ones like from a top level, sort of fly over that you really want to start looking for and pouring into.
Caesar:And right now, as I'm saying this, I know people are thinking about that's so-and-so and that.
Caesar:That's so-and-so on our community.
Caesar:That's so-and-so on our staff, but that's not so-and-so on our staff, it is illuminating.
Caesar:So this is.
Caesar:So anyway, these are the people that are going to be a pleasure to lead and give your life to, and, and think about when, when you're trying to hand off and you're trying to grow and you're developing leaders.
Caesar:Don't you want to spend it with people that are a pleasure?
Caesar:Yeah, absolutely.
Caesar:And they, these types of people are because they're hungry and they're faithful.
Caesar:Yeah, go for those.
Caesar:Look for that in a general sense.
Heath:So who would you say specifically, are people looking to develop as their next generation of leaders?
Heath:How will you know when you see them?
Heath:Do you just kind of guess it, are there certain qualities that people exhibit that we could be looking to identify as the next, maybe best and potentially most effective and faithful leaders?
Heath:Here's a
Caesar:method that I've used.
Caesar:And I don't claim like full authorship to this.
Caesar:I it's kind of been pieced together from other things that I've learned and taught and, um, have been around and I call these the five CS of leadership.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And I think there was a four CS.
Caesar:Helped me start thinking through this, but then I was like, Hm, uh, there's a fifth C actually.
Caesar:So let me suggest these five qualities that you look for in people who are potentially going to be really strong leaders.
Caesar:And they all start with the letter C.
Caesar:That's why we call them that.
Caesar:So, so these first four character chemistry capacity and calling.
Caesar:Okay, I'll go through those a little bit.
Caesar:Great.
Caesar:So character you're asking yourself, does this person have the personal spiritual and emotional life needed by someone who's going to lead others?
Heath:That's a great question.
Caesar:Or do they at least have the desire to develop that because maybe they're younger in the faith or just younger period?
Caesar:Does he or she have good?
Caesar:Follow-through letting their yes.
Caesar:Be a yes.
Caesar:And done.
Caesar:Like, if they say they're going to do it, you don't have to wonder.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:They're going to do it and it'll be done.
Caesar:And if there's something they'll come back and let me know, and then they'll go back and look.
Caesar:Do they do the right things in life and with others, regardless of reward or recognition.
Caesar:Yeah, well, they were doing the right thing, but then I forgot to thank them once.
Caesar:And then now they're all bummed, you know, then they were doing it for the wrong reasons.
Caesar:So that's all character stuff.
Caesar:So you're looking, you're looking at character and that's first on the list for pretty important reasons.
Heath:It should be.
Heath:I mean, I've worked in like, you know, many churches, same with ministry where that is characters, not the first . People,.
Heath:People will put other attributes before character.
Caesar:like capacity,Yeah, what do I think we're going to job description and they can get a lot done.
Caesar:So that's what we need.
Caesar:So higher em
Caesar:throws people
Heath:under the bus,
Caesar:but just skipped over two really important ones.
Caesar:Yeah, exactly.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:Like the people that are pursuing character first and foremost.
Heath:Yeah.
Caesar:He will always serve you and it will avoid so much heartache and stuff.
Caesar:Second one is chemistry.
Caesar:Like, do you and others like hanging out with this person.
Caesar:Yeah, because think about it.
Caesar:If you're developing them and you're locking arms and you're going to do ministry together and do life on life together.
Caesar:It's so it's, it's okay to want to like, like, em.
Caesar:Do people enjoy working with them.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:You know, would you trust this person to have your back when challenging situations arise or personal attacks come your way?
Caesar:Would you trust that person?
Heath:You know, it's funny you say that a little secret to the music business, cause you worked in the music business for years.
Heath:I did as well with touring, a lot of people like what's it take to make it, I can travel the world and do music.
Heath:And for me it was a.
Heath:Yeah, what I learned was it wasn't always the best players.
Heath:It was, it was the, it was the chemistry.
Heath:When you're waking up at 3:00 AM to get to the airport with 12 other people, or you're on a bus with somebody for, for
Heath:four months,
Caesar:or you just found out your flights way early.
Caesar:So sorry.
Caesar:That's not your job, but we're all packing up the gear tonight and later on it, I'm on it.
Caesar:No problem.
Caesar:that was so much more
Heath:important than can you play.
Heath:These cords a little bit faster.
Heath:Can you do a little bit, you know what I mean?
Heath:Absolutely.
Heath:Yep.
Heath:Chemistry's
Heath:huge.
Caesar:Absolutely.
Caesar:That's right.
Caesar:So, and people think, well, you know, in light of the gospel and as believers, everybody should get along, we're not talking about getting along.
Caesar:We're talking about being human and saying, do you like hanging out with this person?
Caesar:Like.
Caesar:We've run so many businesses and had so many staff and hundreds, probably thousands of volunteers in our lifetime, Tina and I, that we've led.
Caesar:I want to like hanging out with these people, the EGRs, you know, the extra grace required.
Caesar:I don't necessarily put them to top of mind.
Caesar:Going to develop them.
Caesar:You know, list, right.
Caesar:I'm not saying we don't.
Caesar:I mean, I know some people are hearing this and they're, they're not gonna like the tone of this.
Caesar:Like we love everybody.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:I'm not talking about, we don't love them.
Caesar:I'm not talking about, we don't serve people.
Caesar:We're talking about when you're trying to pick out of like a lot of people or a few people, and you've only got so much time to develop others.
Caesar:Chemistry is important.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:It just it's to be, it's going to be, especially that last little thing I was saying is like, do you trust this person to have your back when like stuff gets bad or weirdness happens or personal attacks come?
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:So character and chemistry really important.
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:Third one is capacity does he, or she have the necessary time in their current schedule or this season of life to be able to lead others.
Caesar:Sometimes you feel like, man, this person's great character.
Caesar:I love hanging out with them.
Caesar:They're yes.
Caesar:As a yes, they're really great.
Caesar:Um, and they have a lot of chemistry, but like right now, man, their commute is brutal or they've got a special needs child and they're having to drive, you know, an hour and a half, twice a day to doctor's appointments or special stuff or whatever.
Caesar:They're awesome.
Caesar:But right now their current schedule and season of life, doesn't give them the capacity and that's life, right.
Caesar:That's life.
Caesar:So don't, don't burden them further.
Caesar:Cause chances out of that kind of person, that's going to say yes, or tend to anyway.
Caesar:So be wise enough to say, Hey, is the capacity a capacity?
Caesar:Now how about this?
Caesar:Is this person physically.
Caesar:And emotionally healthy.
Caesar:Have you ever worked with someone who can just get a lot done and they really can, but they're always kind of high drama and emotionally like just melting down and they kind of suck everybody into it, but they'll take on a lot of load, they'll say yes.
Caesar:And they'll take stuff off your plate, but that you're not necessarily serving that person very well or your community or yourself if they're not physically and emotionally healthy.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:How about do they react?
Caesar:Well under stress?
Caesar:Or when people and things get hard, like it's tough, right?
Caesar:That's why we talk about like truly making disciples is life on life, life, and community and life on mission.
Caesar:You want to be able to observe people.
Caesar:You know, I was watching this couple and I was watching when this, this happened and or this problem came up or there was this financial need, or this person got really upset about something in the community.
Caesar:And I watched this person and how they reacted under stress.
Caesar:And they were great and they were humble and yet they still spoke the truth in love and they got the job done.
Caesar:They didn't go well, you know, if everybody's not gonna be,
Heath:which is the main reason capacity, shouldn't be number one, because if somebody buckles under that with no integrity and no character, right.
Heath:You're in trouble.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:So when the fire comes and they have actually a person, a character behind.
Heath:Man so much such a different
Heath:story.
Caesar:Oh my goodness.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:So you see how this is kind of adding up, right.
Caesar:Great.
Caesar:To have the capacity, but they have character and chemistry now we're getting close.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:And, and sometimes too, um, we've had to look for like couple capacity, meaning like this won't be everybody's situation just depending on size of church or community or whatever.
Caesar:But if you're looking at say like, uh, we're going to multiply our Missional Community coming up here in the fall.
Caesar:And so I really like, I'm going to start pouring into this couple.
Caesar:'cause I think they really have the character and chemistry to do this, but you know what, one of the couple, the husband or the wife, they're not nearly as available right now because of their job or because they are tending to like an elderly parent that's just gone into like hospice or, or.
Caesar:And so as a couple, they don't have capacity and that's a trickier one to assess, be like, yeah, but he's got time and he's a rockstar.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But he's got to be serving his wife and he's going to be serving his family or vice versa or whatever the situation is.
Caesar:When you look at people, especially you're talking one flesh where the church, we should be doing this better than the world.
Caesar:You want to look at couple capacity as well, because it might, it might not be it's never.
Caesar:It might just be, it's not, now's a great time.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But a boy there, their characters.
Caesar:Awesome.
Caesar:And we love hanging out with them.
Caesar:Their chemistry is just, everybody loves hanging out with them, but we gotta, we gotta help them get past this time.
Caesar:And we have couples even now that we're coaching.
Caesar:We're like they wanted to get, start coaching and really getting after developing a Missional Community like a year ago.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:But they said, well, we've got this health issue that we're helping a family member with and we had to move them in.
Caesar:But in about six or nine months, we think we'll be past that.
Caesar:Then they came back and they said we're past that.
Caesar:Great.
Caesar:Yeah.
Heath:Right.
Heath:Life is life has seasons began to be understand that those seasons coming down.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Fourth one is calling.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:You know, is this person, is he or she called to this specific work at this specific time to hand off to others that put them under heavy burden and they hate doing it too.
Caesar:They're good.
Caesar:And they're good people, right?
Caesar:They have the capacity chemistry and character.
Caesar:Is that person called?
Caesar:I'll tell you calling trumps a lot of stuff.
Caesar:Yeah, because when the going gets tough and you have a calling, you, can you look beyond the present or the present, like lack of momentum or the present pushbacks.
Caesar:So is that person called to this specific work?
Caesar:And at this time, you know, is the timing right?
Caesar:Um, are these the people and place that they're called to work among?
Caesar:Yeah, so you go, like I got this couple, they're going to be great.
Caesar:I really am going to stuff them in the nursery.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:And they're like, we raised babies like 30 years ago and we want to serve we'll serve anywhere, but you know what we say, we have such a heart for like college students.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:For example.
Caesar:And so you want to try to also, that's one of the Cs you want to start, you want to start to look for, like, how is this specific work, uh, part of their calling.
Caesar:Like they really cause you find someone with calling man, and there's implication there.
Caesar:And like we're giving our lives to this and our resources and our time.
Caesar:And, and man, when the going gets tough, we're still going.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:Cause God's called us to.
Caesar:Yeah, that's big.
Caesar:That's really big too.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:So
Heath:I might be wrong, but I'm counting.
Heath:Uh, I'm counting four that's four.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:You noticed that good.
Heath:I'm glad you can count to four.
Heath:Five.
Heath:All right.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:So, um, you also probably noticed I put a great deal of emphasis on character, right?
Heath:That's because character can and must be continually being developed.
Heath:I don't know of anybody.
Heath:Who's just exactly like Jesus.
Heath:I'm not sure.
Heath:I don't know anybody who is, and I know some really strong leaders, but.
Heath:Presently demonstrate a fairly mature character.
Heath:It might be a signal to wait on giving your best leadership time to them.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:Poor, poor character leads to all start all sorts of yet to be discovered problems.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:So anyway, here's your fifth C all right.
Heath:Settle down.
Heath:Settle that it's competency, huh?
Heath:Okay.
Heath:This is something that can be developed in any person who has character and capacity.
Heath:Okay competency.
Heath:So my experience those with high capacity are continuous learners and they develop new competencies all the time.
Heath:And I put competency at the end of this list because to be honest, it's something of a second tier concern.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:And I know that that's maybe not the way we like, you know, you said people go after capacity.
Heath:And then I think in most church settings and even business settings, they go after a competency, you have the right degree, a little bit of experience doing it and you, and we can teach it as systems.
Heath:And so, but what all competency like, well, I think it's second tier and and because you can learn stuff, right?
Heath:If you have great character and high capacity, you're going to, you're going to learn.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:But it doesn't matter as much as the others.
Heath:I think so.
Heath:Still, if you want to begin measuring this aspect of leadership, you can look at the following.
Heath:Does this person have some recognized gifting and skills that they are using to serve others?
Heath:So they have some competency there and they have some passion and then some gifting.
Heath:Are there goals for leadership in line with those gifts?.
Heath:Hmm.
Heath:And what I mean by that is I've had people who were great and they had great character and they had the capacity and I liked hanging with them and they came to me and they said, you know, I really want to start doing this in our community for the church.
Caesar:And you go, I don't know if your gifting is in line with that leadership goal.
Caesar:Yeah, absolutely.
Caesar:And I don't want to, I don't want to really want to step on anybody's toes here so people can kind of read between those lines, but we've all had those people where you're like, I've seen you do that, or I've heard you try to do that or whatever.
Caesar:And though it can be developed.
Caesar:It might not be in line with your gifting.
Caesar:You know, your gifting is so strong over here.
Caesar:Now I seem to be kind of talking about both sides of my mouth here, because I'm saying people going to be developed in competency to a point to a point if they've got character right.
Caesar:And capacity.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But it's really important to start looking at are their goals and, and leadership in line with giftings.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And here's another one.
Caesar:Does this person regularly pursue growth in their existing strengths and their areas of weak?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:See that all speaks to competency for me.
Caesar:Like life we've talked a lot about on the show about being lifelong learners.
Caesar:And so when I look for people that are like, Hey, I really want to start helping out with this.
Caesar:And I'm like, oh, all right.
Caesar:Like, have you ever done it before?
Caesar:And you're like a little, but you know what?
Caesar:I recently was reading some stuff and uh, in a couple of weeks, my wife and are going.
Caesar:There's this conference, it's going to be kind of teaching on some of this and we just signed up for on our own dime and we're going, and I think I'm going to develop this a little bit more.
Caesar:Let's see how it goes.
Caesar:You tell me and suddenly go, oh man, they're pursuing that.
Caesar:Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Caesar:That's really both an area of strength or an area of weakness.
Caesar:That's there's maturity in that, that speaks back to character.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:And, um, I mean, 1 0 9 episode 1 0 9.
Heath:I remember it's one of my favorites of all time on, on what it looks like to be a lifelong learner and how important then is, and putting yourself in a place of constantly wanting to learn.
Heath:But you're correct.
Heath:I've worked for many organizations and even churches who go, no, we'll hire up capacity competency, and then maybe character that stuff.
Heath:And they might be great with capacity, but when they don't have character,
Caesar:well, that's why, what, what are the statistics on how long the average person works at a church?
Caesar:That's not
Caesar:nothing anymore, 18 months
Caesar:or something.
Caesar:And so that's, cause they're not applying the five CS here.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:As always, I want to wrap this up or begin to wrap this up by leaving you with a big three takeaways from today's topic.
Caesar:So you don't want to miss these, this.
Caesar:Big ideas.
Caesar:And in case you're driving or at the gym or whatever, you can get a printable PDF of this.
Caesar:Week's big three for talking points to go back over this with others, whatever, you can get that as a free download by going to Everyday Disciple dot com forward slash big three.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:I really hope that folks will download this cause this is, these are packed.
Caesar:These three are packed.
Caesar:And in addition, I want to go ahead and I'm gonna add, uh, an E-guide.
Caesar:That I've created called, who are your next leaders?
Caesar:And this guide will help identify who specifically you want to look for when developing leaders in your world, in your community or in your business or church or whatever.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So here's the big three first shift your metaphor from trying to raise a crop of people that all grow at the same pace and in the same manner.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:To that of looking for those yeasty people in the dough, focusing on the leaders who are truly leaning into you, it's going to be a pleasure.
Caesar:And you will net much greater fruit and maturity in the future, then that one size fits all approach of crop dusting.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Great.
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:Second, your identity and self-worth does not come from all the tasks and responsibilities that you shoulder within the church.
Caesar:And if it does, and be honest here, I want to remind you of God's great love for you and Christ.
Caesar:You never have to perform or do anything to earn that love.
Caesar:And we say this a lot on the show, but I need to hear it every day.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And also by doing things that others could be equipped to do, maybe even better than you, you may be robbing others of the opportunity.
Caesar:To use their gifts within the church and experience all that God has for them and all the growth and maturing and multiplication that we can experience.
Caesar:I really firmly believe one of the reasons that we have not seen multiplication, like we could be within the church is because we've got just a very few people were being paid to do a little bit of stuff.
Caesar:They're overworked.
Caesar:A lot of it's out of their giftings would they didn't go through the five CS before they got stuck in those roles and all that.
Caesar:And it's just, it's it's.
Caesar:Built-in cap and we're keeping people from experiencing all that God has for them.
Caesar:And for us collectively.
Caesar:Absolutely.
Caesar:It affects everybody.
Caesar:All right.
Third:Look around your community for those faithful men and women around you that are leaning in to everything you do as a leader.
Third:Who are those that are always looking to lend you a hand or serve others?
Third:Which people take what you teach and they apply it and then they share it with others?
Third:Well, I hope that is helpful.
Third:That gives you a lot to think about.
Third:I know that if you'd like help with that, we're here for you.
Third:If you're interested in learning more about developing leaders, putting together a full framework for discipleship and mission, like we said, That discipleship and leadership development.
Third:They're very, very connected leadership development is just discipleship, further up the slope.
Third:So if you want help with that, that's all of the kinds of things we do in the coaching that we offer.
Third:I'd love to set up a short zoom call, get to know you answer any questions you have about that, and maybe get you into an upcoming cohort with us real soon.
Third:Get more information on that at Everyday Disciple dot com forward slash coaching.
Third:Everyday Disciple dot com forward slash coaching, and we can get together.
Third:Well, time is up.
Third:Would you share this episode and the podcast today with a friend, drop him a text, share it on your Facebook page, whatever, help us get the word out, help us make more disciples in everyday life.
Third:And let me know in our Facebook group, some topics that you'd like me to address in upcoming episodes.
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Third:Join the group and leave me a post going here's some questions I've got, or here's a couple ideas I've got for topics.
Third:Things are always changing.
Third:Your context is not the same as mine or heaths or anyone else's.
Third:And I really love hearing what are the things.
Third:You're working on or bumping up against or issues you'd like us to address here on the podcast.
Third:So please let me do that.
Third:I look forward to hearing your ideas and questions.
Third:I'll talk to you soon.
Third:Thanks for joining us today.
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